I remember a political science professor once asking me, “Do you know how the Irish became white?” (our discussion was on immigration movements in 19th century US history) They told the Protestant whites, “at least we are not black.”
His point was that in US history, minority groups gain accension into the mainstream by creating and exploiting the ‘other.’ (which you have spoken poignantly about in previous postings) Sadly, it is construction of this dichotomy between the minority group (in that instance the Irish, who were seen by their Protestant counterparts as drunkards and Pope worshippers) and the black American community that functions as a vehicle for upward social mobilization.
If your insight into the recent Latino situation is true, it may be history repeating itself.
I am not so sure if that is happening in the American Muslim community yet; the problem there, at least according to me, is the fragmented psyche.
That is an excellent example, and yes, it is happening again with the Latinos and Asians.
One point on all of this is that with Latinos taking the jobs traditionally held by African-Americans, this leaves their situation only that much worse. THAT INCLUDES African American Muslims.
So this means that African-American Muslims must get their act together. This is why I am stressing this point. Things are getting bleaker and the outlook doesn’t look good
Ok, what about the fact that there is an element of truth to it. Latinos in general particular the ones from mexico and central America do work very hard on the job, are more reliable than their American counterparts Black or white but particularly Black. So businesses rely on them to keep their companies stable and profitable. But I still lean more to stemming illigal immigration only because it does lower wages in the low skilled jobed, and employers take advantage of the situation by holding the illegal status over their to keep them from complaining.
Anyway do you think its the goverments job to deal with the issue or something that AA community needs to wake up and address themselves
I am not denying the truth in any of those arguments. They are for the most part true. Culturally and otherwise, the Latinos have many advantages over the African-Americans, but not over the whites. This is what I was alluding to when I said the groups are different.
This is why the Latinos are slightly above the blacks but still well below the Asians and whites on the socio-economic ladder. In other words, you won't see many tensions between the Asians and Latinos fighting over low-wage/low skilled jobs. And you won't see much talk about how Indian doctors and engineers are taking African American jobs. Just look at the situation in Fiji too. This is key to understanding my arguments
I am saying that affluent whites see this, in their minds, as an upgrade. But the problem with this argument is that you can't pretend the blacks don't exist anymore.
The argument is that by bringing in these more competent competitors, they are making the situation of another people THAT ARE CITIZENS worse.
Do I think that its the goverment's job to deal with the issue? Only where it concerns ILLEGAL immigration. Theoretically that will at least put the low wage job market back into some order. But the box is open
The African American community DOES INDEED need to wake up and understand that they are falling further and further behind and teach their kids that they will have to get good educations and higher skill sets to compete on higher levels in the job market.
I thgink that black and latino leaaders want to form a colation but when you talk to the black and latino man on the street you will hear a different story and in many cities latinos have been used to neutralize black political power and we also have to say that latinos are not a monolithic group; in NYC relations are good between blacks, Puerto Ricans and Dominicans in general but go out West and you will see black-Mexican relations are poor.
“We too were denied citizenship,” Mr. Jackson said. “We too were undocumented workers working without wages, without benefits, without the vote. “We should feel honored that other people are using tactics and strategies from our [civil rights movement] struggle. We shouldn’t say they’re stealing from us. They’re learning from us.”
Tariq, on your point of jobs going to the immigration community, I say that yes that yes that will happen in one way or another, particulary low-skilled labor orientated jobs but it may not lower wages amongst them as Um Abdullah suggests. For instance, a recent study published in the NYTimes argues that the Cost of Illegal Immigration May Be Less Than Meets the Eye:
California may seem the best place to study the impact of illegal immigration on the prospects of American workers. Hordes of immigrants rushed into the state in the last 25 years, competing for jobs with the least educated among the native population. The wages of high school dropouts in California fell 17 percent from 1980 to 2004.
But before concluding that immigrants are undercutting the wages of the least fortunate Americans, perhaps one should consider Ohio. Unlike California, Ohio remains mostly free of illegal immigrants. And what happened to the wages of Ohio’s high school dropouts from 1980 to 2004? They fell 31 percent.
As Congress debates an overhaul of the nation’s immigration laws, several economists and news media pundits have sounded the alarm, contending that illegal immigrants are causing harm to Americans in the competition for jobs.
Yet a more careful examination of the economic data suggests that the argument is, at the very least, overstated. There is scant evidence that illegal immigrants have caused any significant damage to the wages of American workers.
[...]
“If you’re a native high school dropout in this economy, you’ve got a slew of problems of which immigrant competition is but one, and a lesser one at that,” said Jared Bernstein of the Economic Policy Institute, a liberal research group.
Mr. [Lawrence] Katz agreed that the impact was modest, and it might fall further if changes in trade flows were taken into account
Latino/Hispanic is another overbroad group used to describe those who live south of the border. There are many groups within that group. The term is almost useless. Some count like 135 or something like that.
Puerto Ricans and Dominicans have are “mulattos”. Meaning that they have more African blood (along with Native American and European) That is probably part of the reason they get along better. Many light-skinned blacks “look Puerto Rican” because they probably have about the same bio-genetic mix as a typical Puerto Rican (African, European, Native) Ditto with darker Dominicans who are about the same genetically as a darker skinned African-American. So there is a lot of cross-over. I would even go as far as to say that, language aside, Puerto Ricans may identify more with African-Americans than they do Mexicans.
Mexicans are mostly “mestizos” meaning that they are mixed Native American and European with about 5% African blood.
So basically we are talking about two totally different groups of people.
As you alluded to, that NY Times article about the economic impact of illegal immigrants was highly dubious and widely critisized for not taking into account the huge cost of living difference between California and Ohio.
I agree with you 100% on the other points. This has been my point in all my posts regarding African-Americans. However, the outlook does not look good. And that includes the Muslims. Many of them think that this entire conversation has nothing to do with them!
They put little to no value in education at all and this will hurt in the long run.
I been a part of programs that have tried to help them get their act together. Throughout the 90s there were programs like Job Corps, "Free the Children" and other programs that were in many cases FREE(!!!) that had job training and taught professional skills. Many of the programs died out from LACK OF INTEREST. People were out there begging "Please come get some job training for FREE!" … Some came for a few weeks, thought it was too hard and left, other were not interested at all. Only a handful really took advantage of the programs and went on to make something of themselves.
I am hoping that indeed we can look inwardly, particularly as Muslims. It is appalling to me to find so many African-American Muslims who have these exact same issues, think that this doesn't affect them. You'd be stunned to know just how many African-American Muslims think this way
[...] - ‘Replacement Bill’ more likely to pass now with Democratic Controlled Congress. Problem is that those they are replacing will still be here. [...]
I think there some truth in your argument.
I remember a political science professor once asking me, “Do you know how the Irish became white?” (our discussion was on immigration movements in 19th century US history) They told the Protestant whites, “at least we are not black.”
His point was that in US history, minority groups gain accension into the mainstream by creating and exploiting the ‘other.’ (which you have spoken poignantly about in previous postings) Sadly, it is construction of this dichotomy between the minority group (in that instance the Irish, who were seen by their Protestant counterparts as drunkards and Pope worshippers) and the black American community that functions as a vehicle for upward social mobilization.
If your insight into the recent Latino situation is true, it may be history repeating itself.
I am not so sure if that is happening in the American Muslim community yet; the problem there, at least according to me, is the fragmented psyche.
That is an excellent example, and yes, it is happening again with the Latinos and Asians.
One point on all of this is that with Latinos taking the jobs traditionally held by African-Americans, this leaves their situation only that much worse. THAT INCLUDES African American Muslims.
So this means that African-American Muslims must get their act together. This is why I am stressing this point. Things are getting bleaker and the outlook doesn’t look good
Ok, what about the fact that there is an element of truth to it. Latinos in general particular the ones from mexico and central America do work very hard on the job, are more reliable than their American counterparts Black or white but particularly Black. So businesses rely on them to keep their companies stable and profitable. But I still lean more to stemming illigal immigration only because it does lower wages in the low skilled jobed, and employers take advantage of the situation by holding the illegal status over their to keep them from complaining.
Anyway do you think its the goverments job to deal with the issue or something that AA community needs to wake up and address themselves
Um Abdillah
I am not denying the truth in any of those arguments. They are for the most part true. Culturally and otherwise, the Latinos have many advantages over the African-Americans, but not over the whites. This is what I was alluding to when I said the groups are different.
This is why the Latinos are slightly above the blacks but still well below the Asians and whites on the socio-economic ladder. In other words, you won't see many tensions between the Asians and Latinos fighting over low-wage/low skilled jobs. And you won't see much talk about how Indian doctors and engineers are taking African American jobs. Just look at the situation in Fiji too. This is key to understanding my arguments
I am saying that affluent whites see this, in their minds, as an upgrade. But the problem with this argument is that you can't pretend the blacks don't exist anymore.
The argument is that by bringing in these more competent competitors, they are making the situation of another people THAT ARE CITIZENS worse.
Do I think that its the goverment's job to deal with the issue? Only where it concerns ILLEGAL immigration. Theoretically that will at least put the low wage job market back into some order. But the box is open
The African American community DOES INDEED need to wake up and understand that they are falling further and further behind and teach their kids that they will have to get good educations and higher skill sets to compete on higher levels in the job market.
I thgink that black and latino leaaders want to form a colation but when you talk to the black and latino man on the street you will hear a different story and in many cities latinos have been used to neutralize black political power and we also have to say that latinos are not a monolithic group; in NYC relations are good between blacks, Puerto Ricans and Dominicans in general but go out West and you will see black-Mexican relations are poor.
Today’s NYTimes notes the growing unease for some balcks on immigration. I think there are more gains than losses over this issue. As Jesse Jackson put it in the article:
Tariq, on your point of jobs going to the immigration community, I say that yes that yes that will happen in one way or another, particulary low-skilled labor orientated jobs but it may not lower wages amongst them as Um Abdullah suggests. For instance, a recent study published in the NYTimes argues that the Cost of Illegal Immigration May Be Less Than Meets the Eye:
Umar,
Latino/Hispanic is another overbroad group used to describe those who live south of the border. There are many groups within that group. The term is almost useless. Some count like 135 or something like that.
Puerto Ricans and Dominicans have are “mulattos”. Meaning that they have more African blood (along with Native American and European) That is probably part of the reason they get along better. Many light-skinned blacks “look Puerto Rican” because they probably have about the same bio-genetic mix as a typical Puerto Rican (African, European, Native) Ditto with darker Dominicans who are about the same genetically as a darker skinned African-American. So there is a lot of cross-over. I would even go as far as to say that, language aside, Puerto Ricans may identify more with African-Americans than they do Mexicans.
Mexicans are mostly “mestizos” meaning that they are mixed Native American and European with about 5% African blood.
So basically we are talking about two totally different groups of people.
Adu Abdir Rahman
As you alluded to, that NY Times article about the economic impact of illegal immigrants was highly dubious and widely critisized for not taking into account the huge cost of living difference between California and Ohio.
I agree with you 100% on the other points. This has been my point in all my posts regarding African-Americans. However, the outlook does not look good. And that includes the Muslims. Many of them think that this entire conversation has nothing to do with them!
They put little to no value in education at all and this will hurt in the long run.
I been a part of programs that have tried to help them get their act together. Throughout the 90s there were programs like Job Corps, "Free the Children" and other programs that were in many cases FREE(!!!) that had job training and taught professional skills. Many of the programs died out from LACK OF INTEREST. People were out there begging "Please come get some job training for FREE!" … Some came for a few weeks, thought it was too hard and left, other were not interested at all. Only a handful really took advantage of the programs and went on to make something of themselves.
I am hoping that indeed we can look inwardly, particularly as Muslims. It is appalling to me to find so many African-American Muslims who have these exact same issues, think that this doesn't affect them. You'd be stunned to know just how many African-American Muslims think this way
[...] - ‘Replacement Bill’ more likely to pass now with Democratic Controlled Congress. Problem is that those they are replacing will still be here. [...]