Hurry and get married … and have lots of children too!!!!!
Posted on January 8th, 2007 by Tariq Nelson
Hood has started a series on the wali
Filed under: Black American Muslims, Convert Issues, Practical Solutions, Sloganism over Reality, The Culture of Denial and Pretense
Indeed a very much needed topic. People push others into marriages and then wonder what went wrong or why there is such a high rate of divorce. Marriage is not the solution to everything.
Good post.
A few other things need to be thought of. If you do decide to get married, do it properly.
I know one Pakistani sister who really wanted to be married. She was getting older, at least for the culture anyways, she was 27. She comes from a good family, has a bachelors degree, ect.
She met an African American guy and decided to marry him without knowing much about him. The father was against it, more because of racial reasons than anything else. He gave her no dowry, no honeymoon, ect.
A woman should insist on her dowry. It doesnt have to be $10,000, but it is also wrong to sell yourself short. He then decided that as their dowry, sometime in the unspecified future, he will take them on Hajj. But wait, as her husband, doesnt he have a duty to do that anyway? Why would that be a dowry? Kind of like saying “as your dowry, I’ll get you clothes to wear”. That is his duty.
He then moves her out of state, demands that she works. This was never a demand made before marriage. He told her he had a degree from Harvard, never mind he was an enlisted man in the US military and admitted he drank and fornicated until right before the marriage. Of course he didnt mention that BEFORE the marriage.
Then the lady finds letters, in Arabic, from North African women it turns out he dated before they got married. Now this “Harvard graduate” is supposedly going to become a police man (first story)……no, federal security agent(second story)………the stories seem to change. He spends a lot of time outside of the state “going to school” to become a law enforcement office of some kind, the wife isnt really sure with whom.
The stories get more and more unbelievable as time goes on. Never mind selling yourself short and getting no dowry, how many Harvard graduates go into the military as enlisted? How many Harvard graduates become local cops (first law enforcment story told)? He now tells her not to tell others what he is doing because it is something top secret or other.
Her or her family did not check up on the guy. She says she has seen transcripts from Harvard, but anyone with Photoshop can make such transcripts in 1/2 hour. He refuses to let her meet his family, even though they live only an hour away.
There is something VERY fishy with this guy. Now he is pressing her to have children. My wife and I are worried. We are thinking the guy might have another family in another state, hence all of the traveling out of state for what he claimed was a local police position! Do cops really travel for several months, out of state, to train for a local police position?
I tried to get my wife to ask where, exactly, he was going to be working so we could find out where their training was, but that is when he started the “dont tell anyone, secret job” stuff.
The wife says she buys it, but then asked my wife to translate the letters in Arabic she found. For someone who trusts a guy, she seems to have a lot of questions herself.
We are caught in a hard place. I thought about calling the registrars office at Harvard to check up on the transcripts, but to do that we’d need his social security number. We dont want to worry or offend the girl by asking her these questions or by questioning his stories, but we are pretty certain something is funny here.
It is odd that the girl doesnt see these things for herself. Or does she, and just doesnt want to admit it? Sometimes people just live in denial.
Abu Sinan, it always seems to be the black guys that act a complete fool. Don’t let your daughter marry a knee-grow!!!!
Abu Sinan:
Once you’ve made a mistake you try to make it work out and not admit that it is a mistake and your life continues to go down the drain as you invest more into the culture of denial and look around and you are ashamed
Hey Tariq, isn’t all this just a fancy way of saying to date without fornication?
Yusuf,
This isnt a race issue. I was just pointing out the backgrounds of the people involved. It can have a bearing on the case in question.
The guy playing the games could be a Pakistani guy, or an Arab. It doesnt matter.
Ed, you can get to know people in the proper situation. There is nothing wrong with spending time with a perspective spouse in the company of family or at the mosque. I havent seen Tariq suggest that men and women go out, alone, to get to know each other.
Unless you do not think that it is possible to get to know someone without being alone with them? Personally, I know first hand that you can get to know someone just fine without spending time alone with them.
There MUST be a middle ground between dating and stranger marriage. I think that is what Brother Tariq is talking about.
I’ve come across sisters who ask for little or no dowery because they feel sorry for their husbands. And then some have husbands who made them feel like a bad sister for asking for a larger one and then quote ahadith about the blessings of a small dowery.
And asking for Hajj as a dowery is another one that kind of gets me. What happens if you get divorced before you make hajj together. Then what happens?
“Of course this advice is for people who think that marriage is more than just about sex”
:lol: 
Tariq,
I’m amazed your insight into this issue. I do agree with 110%, and I hope this post will get stick in every household.
Jazak Allah Khair.
[...] time and I was just ready to leave and sticking to my budget when I see that Tariq Nelson has put a piece on marriage and the issue of the wali in response to a piece written by Brother Hood Bradford on [...]
in all honesty the sisters should ask for something solid for the dowry because all they do is enable brothers who get married all these times. all the hadith quoting is GAME and the hadith Tariq mentioned about the iron ring is the one that is used.
That was excellent, straight to the point. But you some people have to learn the hard way and will never listen.
WackyPaki,
In that case He pays for her Hajj, and not the no frills package, but one that is reasonable for her status and needs.
So an american sister is not going for the 10 people in a room type of package, that doesnt fit her. So he pays for one with a private room, for example. It all depends on what is customary and acceptable to her and women like her.
Hood,
Thanks for the information. Personally, I’m not feeling the whole hajj as a dowery thing because I’m sure that the intent behind it was that hajj would be performed with that person, as husband as wife. Depending on the hajj package, that amount could vary from $3,000 to $5,000, right? It’s too complicated.
Masha’Allah…..Excellent post. I also think it addresses issues for anyone seeking a proper marriage not only converts in general.:)
Yes, WackyPaki, it is sacrilege to wait and see how things work out.
salaam,
the only thing I would say in disagreement in the post is be picky not very very picky. because people tend to look for this perfect person that doesn’t exist. A person should make a list of things\traits they seek in a spouse :the absolute must-haves, the desirable, the absolute can’t haves, and things that can be overlooked. It takes a lot of honesty with yourself in terms of what you want. Another key to remember is you’re not perfect so don’t expect your perspective spouse to be perfect.
I agree with you Muhammad-nur, allow the question has to be asked “What are we to be picky about?”
some people are looking for the perfect face, perfect body, and perfect everything.
those people usually get married late in life.
Others want a good man/woman, with good morals, a good job, and diligence to provide in the deen and dunya.
problem has always been that we brush off all the desires we have, and then fake the funk on issues of the deen. A man should marry a women that he is physically, mentally, and religiously attracted to, not just anyone b/c she is “deening” as they say.
DO NOT READ: If You Are Easily Offended, Sensitive To Taboo Topics, or Prefer To Live In A Culture of Denial and Pretense.
I would like to take this discussion one step further, in a direction I’m not sure many would think is Islamic. I agree with your advice and I empathetically believe that couples should find out and get to know as much about their prospective spouse, as possible. However, there are some things that no matter how good your Wali is, no matter how many questions you ask, no matter how much time you spend with the person and those who know him/her, you just will not know until after you have already taken the plunge.
I know many sisters who are in sexually frustrated marriages. For the convert sister who may have not been a virgin when she got married, this can pose a very serious problem. I know Muslim women from Muslim countries who will tell you that they have no love for their husbands, but for the most part will remain in a loveless and sexually frustrated marriage. For the convert sister, this is problematic. For one many of them are still in touch with their old boyfriends or babies daddies and have been told things like, “you know you miss this” or “I know he ain’t hitting it like I did” and other such statements that reminds the sister that she use to have a good sex life. I know a sister who’s son reported to her husband that she was sleeping with the building maintenance man. Another sister has been married over a dozen times and has no problem with dropping a man who is not pleasing her.
On the other extreme are brothers who have no respect for their wives and view them as halal hoes! I once had a sister tell me that when she got married it was that time of the month. The brother, instead of being patient and using this as a time to work on their relationship, became furious and insisted that she perform oral sex on him. Another sister, after marring into polygyny, was met at the airport on her wedding night by her new husband and his wife. They all went to the hotel together, the sister says she was coerced by the co-wife and husband to put on a lingerie show with the first wife, and have a threesome in the jacuzzi. He was a student at The University of Medina and claimed to have a fatawa saying that it was permissible.
Some situations simply call for patience and better communication between the spouses. However, there are others that are basically hopeless unless you have very strong iman and much trust and reliance on Allah to deliver you from that or to make things miraculously better. Such a case is my experiences.
Let us assume that all of your above advice was heeded and every imaginable precaution was taken before I married. I was married to a man, who it was physically impossible to consummate the marriage with, due to a SHORTCOMING on his part that could be described as none other than a birth defect. I did not find this out until our marriage night and even then, after rubbing and grinding himself to ecstasy and rolling over and falling asleep, he said nothing. As a matter of fact the closest he came to acknowledging that he had a problem was to try and place the blame on me. This supposedly pious man made a confession or told a lie to me that he had been with many women in Paris before me and they were all pleased with him and that perhaps if I had flatter abs we could position ourselves better. I never once complained to him and even then did not dignify him with a, “it doesn’t matter how anorexic I get you will never be able to have sex with me or anybody else”. I decided that I would live a miserable existence and stay with him. I wanted children desperately and recalled that in my sex ed class that we were taught that sperm swims, so I had not given up all hope of having children as long as he was still humping my leg. It was sad and depressing for me and often times I found myself crying in the shower afterwards (picture the shower scene from Ace Ventura Pet Detective, when he discovered that the beautiful female police officer was a man and he felted raped and defiled). I mean things could be worse, at least I was now praying my sunnahs at his encouragement.
Alhamduillah, I was able to come up with a valid reason for a khul after he kicked me once. His sexual dysfunction was a valid reason, but I could not bring myself to admitting to him that it was a problem for me, furthermore I could have never sought a khul and exposed him like that. It would have probably been more embarrassing and humiliating for me anyway and the Islamic Authority would have probably had no respect for me for wanting a husband who could sexually please me.
Next. Alhamduillah, I found my soul mate. We were perfect for each other. We followed the same manhaj and our tape collections complimented each other. He had all the tapes I was missing and vice versa. We spent many nights listening to various lectures by our favorite Shaykhs and Daees. Unfortunately, that’s all we did! Nobody would have ever suspected there was a problem in our marriage. We were the perfect couple to everyone. Even counseled other couples. The problem was that we had a strictly platonic relationship. We were best buddies and that was it. The brother was homophobic and often talked about how tough the brothers from East Orange NJ were for burning down the Queer Masjid in Canada (or so he said). With all that tough talk from him, after we married he started showing me more and more of his feminine side. It started with things like him rolling his eyes and saying, “you wearing that?” and if I said what’s wrong he would crinkle his nose up in a snotty way and say, “whatever.” Once my car alarm went off after midnight, and he was too afriad to go outside and turn check it out, so I went out. He was the look out man in the window and started geting worried and was about to cry like a little biyatch. He was whispering in his delicate little voice, “come on hurry up” and looking petrified! He had an unnatural fascination for other brothers that seemed more like a teenage crush. Again, I was willing to sacrifice my own personal happiness because I was ashamed of a divorce. I mean dang that’s two sets of wedding presents that friends and families had dished out in less than a year. He liked me in every way but an intimate way. I would walk him to the door when he was leaving the house and he would say, “I would hug you but I don’t want you to get your hopes up.” At night we would lie in bed all night talking about everything you could imagine, then when I would turn the lights off he would ball up as far on the other side of the bed as he could without falling out. At least he slept with me. That was until he started moving brothers into our home. He moved out of our bedroom and into the living room with them. At this point he had stopped working to become a full time student of knowledge. I was paying the rent and buying groceries, cooking, and cleaning for a house full of men. I mean things could be worse, at least I was now praying tahajjud every night at his encouragement.
Things went from bad to worse when my reputation was at stake. I was becoming the talk of the town and nobody was saying a word about the brothers. I was slandered and accused of sleeping with all of them. One sister told me her husband said that she could no longer associate with me, because I was an immoral and unchaste woman and that as long as I remained in that living situation I was committing haram. So I moved out and the brother was thrilled. He just wanted to make sure that he got all of his tapes back!
I never questioned the brother’s sexuality to him, myself or anyone else. It has only recently become a question in my mind when I found out from other sisters that they had Muslim husbands who were on the down low (google it if you don’t know).
After that ordeal, I had a sister tell me to, “forget men they ain’t shit, girl just get a vibrator it does the job much better.” I could not believe that she suggested that I do something haram, when remarrying was clearly halal (and I was given several talks by people encouraging me to get remarried and not be ashamed because the sahabiyyat married and divorced). This same sister, after finding out my desire to remarry (my biological clock was ticking) made the following dua for me, “Girl I pray that Allah give you a husband that loves your drawls and is a animal in bed.” I can’t be sure, but I think I said, “ameen!!!” 3x and praised Allah and sent salat and salaams to His Messenger.
So I am remarried. Again! Does my husband have a problem. No! He has a very healthy libido, as a matter of fact, Allah answered the sister’s dua! However, after being labeled, “The Last American Virgin” in high school, working in a male dominated field turning down advances from very fine men who thought that my hijab was sexy, repressing any sexual urges in two marriages, and let’s not forget surviving two sexual molestation attempts as a child; I now have an aversion to intimacy or at least sex. I’d rather clean the toilet. I have also vilified this man for simply, loving me. I mean what type of man would want to have sex with his wife unless he is some sort of sexual predator or something?
After announcing my current marriage, my family freaked! My mother blamed herself. She thought maybe she went wrong somewhere in my upbringing and thought I was mentally unstable to go around marrying “complete stranger” over and over. She actually asked me if I were a nymphomaniac! Me?! Another relative said, “you are nothing but a Muslim whore” and was disgusted with me. I never told my co-workers when I would divorce and would try and act like I was talking about the same husband every time (and they were all from different ethnic backgrounds). I lived in absolute shame and disgrace (at least inside of my head).
As a Muslim woman there really is no means to get counsel on this type of issue. My job once sent me to a therapist. because it was a high stress position and it was required that the employees who experienced stress went. I went in there like I did not have a problem in the world and when she started prying I burst in tears but could still not tell her what my problems were. I felt that I had to protect the image of Islam and I did not want to air any problems we as Muslims had to non Muslims.
I have seen, what I call, “Ghetto Fatawa” asked by many Western (Okay ghetto) Muslims. These questions are usually never answered by the Mashaykh and does nothing but embarrass them. I know we are to refer to the people who know, but do they really know these things? Isn’t this a bit out of their league?
I’m not sure why I am posting this comment, but I took a chance and insha’Allah it will be a step towards Muslims discussing contemporary problems and solutions.
Sister Broke Rib,
I am so happy that you posted that comment. You are an amazing sister for being strong enough to leave those situations and still hold your head up strong. Being a Paki I know how taboo the subject of divorce is and I commend you for being strong enough to leave those situations knowing that you would be talked about behind your back like a dog, even from your own family members!
I remember a story my mom was telling me about a Pakistani sister who divorced her hubby because he always wanted to have intercourse from the backside. I immediately thought doggy-style and told my mother that there
Muhammad-nur:
The last part of what Hood said is what I meant. I have seen that people are marrying the opposite of what they ideally want in a spouse.
Sisters are marrying men with no jobs and no place to stay
Brothers are marrying sisters that they are not attracted to at all
All of that is in the name of “not being picky”
A sister should not be berated if she wants a man that has a stable job, a place to stay and solid character
Broke Rib,
I think the sister touches on something that needs to be discussed. The uptightness and taboos regarding female sexuality in the Muslim World means the problems of these sisters go overlooked and many are in depressed states. Think the Muslim Link will cover that one any time soon?
Broke Rib:
There are no ’silver bullets’ but in general, it is because of the crippling community taboos that we impose that sisters like yourself suffer. We don’t know each other. We know the ‘masjid persona’ the ’student of knowledge’, but not the actual person.
The brother gets good reviews from everyone in the community, but that is on the pretentious personality.
This is why I suggest that the wali really ask the references (at least 10 or so) how well do you really know this brother? If you guys are friends, what do you guys do together? … What makes him angry? … Does he seem naive? … Does he act ‘ghetto’? … He grow up in a broken family? etc
Many walis only ask a few questions: “How often does he attend the masjid?” …”Does he seem like a good guy?”
That is not enough. People need to slow it down and check things out more throughly before disaster strikes
Broke Rib,
As a result of the madness men have put sisters through, lesbianism is a big problem amongst the sisters and as you mentioned some will openly tell sisters to get a dildo. You are on to something with the Mashaykh, one shaykh was asked about the dildos the sisters are using and he could not even conceptualize what the person was asking. There was a Q/A with Sh Fawzee al atharee once with a lot of taboo questions (STDs, husbands selling drugs, polgyny) and people were wondering why people were asking these questions and thought it was of no benefit as if these things are no problem. Sisters had to be advised to cover in front of the lesbian sisters.
Tariq mentions brothers who marry often, but there are sisters who do it too. There was one who was dissatisfied with her next husband and return to her “packin” previous husband.
some of you my find what i’m about to say as strange but:
this is not the religion for idiots, i.e. use what you have at your disposal to investigate potential spouses——- the internet. for example, if you know a persons legal first and last name you can learn a lot about them. if you are able to pay as little
as $10 us then you can learn current home addresses, phone numbers, previous home addresses. for around $40 us you can even learn some one’s employment history, military search, marrital history. most importantly you can search their criminal background as well as sexaul offender lists.
so, when some approaches you to marry you or one of your children you have a powerful arsenal of information at your disposal. if you elect to use it. immigrants can also be researched on the internet .
What about when the walis want to pawn off the ‘undesireable’ sisters off on you? And they insist on it and treat you like some impossible to deal with brother because you want a sister about your own age
for those of you in ksa check out the: al-shaqaiq society based in jeddah.
the org is one that gives counseling and support to married couples in an attempt to prevent divorce. they also train young ladies on the duties of maintaining a household…. keep in mind housework is not a womans absolute duty but their point of view culturally is that woman maintain the cleanliness and order of the home.
Khaalid, that actually happened to my husband. Not with me of course, but with his ex. He’s white and she’s white and he lived in a completely different time zone and was still called by some Saudis who were tired of dealing with the mentally ill, homeless, white, over weight mother of three. They made my husband, a then new Muslim, feel as though it was his Islamic duty to marry her. She has since then come and gone from Islam several times and will go to any religious community that can help her. He has a daughter by her that is being raised in homeless shelters and away from her sisters and brother (my kids ;her older sibs are now adults). It is a real mess that could have been avoided.
Rashidah, in KSA you get maids to do that.
“this is not the religion for idiots”
Rashida hit it right on the head.
I am sick of the so-called students of knowledge that peddle their shaykh-oil back to the states in the form of bunk tired fatwas, which are usually asked in extremely dubious ways and circumstances, and then misconstrued to fit that person desires.
Not to blame Students of knowledge for everythign, b/c Allah has given us brains, and a fitrah, and sometimes things should be clear that something is just not right. You dont need a shayk to tell you that you have the flu, why do you need one to tell you that you are in a terrible relationship!
The Messenger said “Take fatwa from your heart, even if the people bring you this and that fatwa”
This idolization of people and their connections to Shaykhs is sickening, and borderline Shirk.
It distresses me though that people dont use the common sense that God gave them and seem to need a fatwa for everything.
Hood, that is very taboo to say and saying that will make you worthy of losing all your friends and being abandoned and left alone.
Umm Adam,
Salam, out of respect, I am not trying to be rude here in any way, so please I hope you do not misunderstand where I am coming from. You mentioned that your husband’s daughter lives in homeless shelters with his ex. May I ask, why doesn’t she live with you? Why doesn’t your husband get custody of her? Or is she older now? I mean, I dunno, and I know you didn’t go into detail about this (and of course that is your business) but t he little girl stood in my mind from your comment and I wanted to mention something.
My head is spinning!
I can always count on an hour of “can’t stop reading” time when I read the comments on Tariq’s blog.
I’m just going to sit and say a bunch of “Alhamdulillahs” that I have never, ever had to deal with ANY of this. I’m a convert, I knew my husband before I was a convert, we married before I converted, we waited 2 1/2 years to start having kids, which coincidentally came at the same time I converted; my husband was from the 1980s group of brothers who grew up in the Gulf, went nuts-o wild in the states for several years, and then came back to their senses, and back to their Deen. This is a common phenomenon.
I will say, however, I would not trade knowing my husband before I married him, and I can excuse it away because yes, I was in “jahiliyah” at the time, but nonetheless am grateful for that time. I think a lot of converts have had similar situations.
Allah help us to be righteous spouses.
LaLa, that’s another blog entry, but for the most part the mo presents herself as a afir to the courts who fears her life for aposting so they they gave her custody.
Wow, thank you for the article. This resonates with all my thoughts about finding a Muslim spouse in the West. In fact, I find writing about finding a spouse relieves the tension in me, which is one of the reasons why I started up a blog on my quest to find my future Muslim Wife
This was a great post. I had in my mind to write something similar, as a certain khateeb at my university tends to speak about nothing else than “brothers! there’s too much fitna in the world, you have to get married now! If you see a sister that you like, don’t be shy!” I hear this sort of rhetoric often, but it reduces marriage to a simple matter of satiating one’s desires, when really the more important thing is to lower one’s gaze and behave in modesty. I personally believe that if someone is getting married only to “protect himself (or herself) from fitnah”, it’s really unfair to the other party in the marriage. I’ve said this in private and among friends, but generally get criticized for these feelings, which they blame for my continued bachelordom.
as salam alaykum. you should change the name of this blog to “Freedom of Speech”. this is the first time i have read anything on this site in a while, and it surprises me (or maybe it doesn’t) that Brother Tariq would actually make many of the statements he did in this post.
Question: How many Scholars have given advice such as wait to have kids? Should ignorant people be able to voice their opinions for the world? Should we give them the mic? But really, just ask what the ulama would say if he chimed in.
And fear Allah.
Come on, Umar Lee???!!!
If any of you want marriage advice, read the works of the Scholars and Students, or call and wait for the fatwa. Imaam Maalik said, “I wish I was flogged for every opinion I gave so that I would not punished on the Day of Resurrection.”
I mean people on here speak Arabic yet they are voicing their thoughts instead of calling or emailing the ulama. I guess they are too busy, so let us hasten and say what we want.
Wallahi, if I may state an opinion, freedom of speech and forums like this are the cause of the degeneration of the Ummah, not just irresponsable walis and racist countries and so on. It is bad advice and riff raff.
The Deen is Naseehah. Sincere Advice. Not something we feel sincere about but Advice based on Kitab and Sunnah. If that’s what this is, then i challenge anyone to produce the evidence of the Kitab, Sunnah or Scholars to support.
Last time visitor to any of these open forums,
Mustafaa
Mustafaa I suppose you won’t read this but if you do, don’t take this the wrong way, but you sound new. I wish that I and many others like me had advice like this. It is a disaster out here with “the people of hadith” and all of us thrown off the manhaj
I have a question: Who here, besides Mustafaa, thought Tariq was passing out fatwas?
Another sister, after marring into polygyny, was met at the airport on her wedding night by her new husband and his wife. They all went to the hotel together, the sister says she was coerced by the co-wife and husband to put on a lingerie show with the first wife, and have a threesome in the jacuzzi. He was a student at The University of Medina and claimed to have a fatawa saying that it was permissible.
Asalaamu alaikum
It is very harmful to mention an accusation like this without having proof. Verily if you have proof then putting it on the internet does not seem responsible. Why? The reason is because there are only 50 students from America that study in Medinah and in the past 6 years there have been 15 brothers who have graduated and about 40 that have dropped out. So out of those 100 or so students not even a tenth are known to have more than 1 wife. Now I must say I am assuming this brother was from america and if he is not than we still should be careful about mentioning accusations like this. Allah knows best
If only we were all as righteous as Mustafaa there would be no degeneration in the ummah. This forum is the cause of the entire ummah’s decline
Hmmm, I take it that Tariq would be killed on the spot for his “free speech” opinions/positions by these people in the Muslim world.
What is so wrong with what Tariq said? There are plenty of ahadith stating to fast to quell your sexual desires? So there are options besides running out and getting married to the first person you find. And aren
Shattered when you live in a bizzaro world as I did for many years advice like Tariq’s looks extremely evil. Good common sense advice looks evil. Bad advice like getting married quickly without looking into it is seen as good. up is down and down is up
Everything is upside down. Responsible working family men are “off the manhaj” while irresponsible ones are ‘thiqah’ and given a ‘tazkiyah’ to get married. I stopped worrying about these guys and moved on with my life a long time ago and I suggest that Tariq and all the others dont worry about these guys protests either. Their way will fade away
wow. quite a discussion. for my part, ameen to brother tariq’s suggestions. just because two people are practicing muslims doesn’t mean they’re a perfect match - and that’s if you are sure they are both honestly practicing.
a couple of hours ago i talked to my mom on the phone, and she told me of a new muslimah in her community who is looking to get married. so everything in this discussion resonated strongly.. wish i could forward it to the woman!
I agree that this is an interesting discussion. I don’t disagree with most of what is being said here. Perhaps some of the comments could be a little “islamafied”, but other than that, marriage problems are becoming a huge problem in Muslim society, esp. when we are exposed to so much fawaish in the society that we almost take some of those expectations into the bedroom and unfortunately don’t have them met!
Brother Hood, I applaud for you the excellent topic. I think the Wali issue is indeed a big problem, because the Walis are just not fulfilling their responsibilities, and I fear for what harm they may have caused unintentionally.
I do have a question for you, regarding your statement “This idolization of people and their connections to Shaykhs is sickening, and borderline Shirk.”
Of course for the self-proclaiming ‘traditionalists’, this statement represents a complete heresy, but even for those who desire not to blindly follow anyone, don’t you think that reverse is actually the problem, i.e. the fact that there is fitan because people do not connect themselves to scholars and people of knowledge? I mean the scholars have earned the right to be taken as those to be connected to, haven’t they? For example, we know from the fitnah of the impostor Mahdi in Hijaz, that scholars have referred to the instigator’s lack of connection with scholars as one of the reasons for his misguidance. Maybe I am misunderstanding your intent, so I think this statement of yours deserves some more explanation, so that it isn’t misconstrued.
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Musings of a Muslim Mind
Sorry, an important correction to:
“esp. when we are exposed to so much fawaish in the society that we almost take some of those expectations into the bedroom and unfortunately don
Amad I think I see what your saying but to fully understand can you tell me what this:
“Of course for the self-proclaiming
I’ve waited almost 34 years to get married and I still haven’t got it down quite right. For me, it’s been a difficult pathway to negotiate. I cannot marry a stranger - I cannot marry someone w/o the love component. There! I said it. Muslims/marriage/love. So what?
akhi Hood, I am referring to those who require you to blindly follow a madhab or a tariqah shaikh, etc. So, for them not to follow a Shaykh would be unacceptable, so your statement would be hard to swallow. For others who do not do so, like the ahl-hadith, they would still say that the connection to a scholar is essential. Hope it clarifies.
Amad,
Generally I lump Salafis and Ahl al Hadith in with the traditionalists, so my statement applies to both.
Those that give lip service to not having a Shaykh, making taqlid, or following a madhhab/tariqah in general end up doing the same in the end of the day.
The problem is that while many Salafis/Ahl al Hadith claim that they do not make taqlid and some view it as Haram and deride those that allow taqlid, they are in fact contradicting their own methodology.
Obviously this discussion has to do with issues of fiqh and furu’, not with issues of belief, as all scholars are of the opinoin that taqlid is haram in issues of belief, there being consensus on this principle.
So in the areas of Fiqh, if the Salafi Methodology is to take from the “Salaf” then I dont know of any of the Salaf that forbade taqlid especially for the laymen. It was only until the likes of al-Shawkani and Siddiq hasan Khan did the opinion of taqlid being Haram come in vogue.
Before this the Ulama were of two camps:
- the 1st: those that saw that the door to ijtihad had closed, and as such necessitated some form of taqlid on everyone, basically saying that there will never be another unrestricted Mujtahid the likes of the four Imams.
- the 2nd: those that did not agree with the door to ijtihad having been closed, and viewed people as one of three people:
–1. A layman. This person makes a broad form of taqlid, but not to a specific Imam, instead he follows the scholars of his area, those known for their knowledge and piety. It is not permissible for him to deride others for their following of fatwa, and obligatory on him to follow the scholars.
–2. a student of knowledge. this person makes taqlid to one school, so that he can learn the ins and outs of that school, its juristic reasoning and evidences, answer the questions of the laymen accordingly, and work his way to being from the third group which is…
–3. the scholars. these people do not make taqlid, in that they have the analytical ability to delve into the evidence and derive rulings. the lines between 2 & 3 can be blurry, as the majority of scholars allowed ijtihad to compartmentalize, so that one man may be a mujtahid in one issue of area, and yet a student or laymen in another.
Its a long discussion but this is the gist of it.
So as applies to Salafis and Ahl al Hadith, they are the same as everyone else, and worse in some aspects because in principle they should make taqlid to no one, yet end up idolizing their scholars and callers, which is a contradiction in terms. Traditionalist Madhhabis however are not contradictory. Progressives are honest with themselves and follow no one but what they see as fit.
The logical end to the open ended view that taqlid is haram eventually leads to sinfulness, following of desires, and deviation in the end through personal endeavor to please the self (nafs).
Idolization of creation leads to the same, yet does so through personal endeavor to please others, which in the end of the day is the pleasing of the self (nafs) and is a form of shirk
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“Have you not seen he who takes his desires as a deity; God sends him astray after his having had knowledge, seals his hearing and heart, and places over his eyes a veil. Who will then guide him after God? Will you not take heed?” al-Jathiyah: 23
and Allah knows best
Well I was not referring to the issue of Taqleed, though I appreciate (not completely agree) with your treatise, rather, my question was why you would consider connections to a scholar as being abominable. And why was it not important to HAVE this connection?
I know and understand that the idea of Taqleed for the layman being haram is an uncommon opinion among the scholars of Ahl-Hadith (or Salafis). And I don’t agree with this “strange” opinion either. So, I am a little confused as to how your reply applies to my specific question.
You weren’t referring to the issue of taqlid, but that is where the issue leads back to, and is a factor in the formation of this attitiude.
Connections to a scholar become abominable when they are not accompanied with the proper attitude of virtue and benefit coming from Allah alone, no one else.
Basically what is happening when people claim “connections” to scholars is exactly what happened with the people of the book and the extremes they went to in veneration and reverence of the Prophets, their followers, and their leaders after them.
Most people that claim any “connection” to any “group” usually, not always, but usually will find themselves slipping into this.
Allah knows best.
The word “connection” doesn’t imply the type of blind following and excessive reverence that you are referring to. Rather, it implies that you stay in connection with the people of knowledge at all times, for the purpose of correction, advice, and solutions. Scholars are heirs to the Prophets, so if we don’t maintain a connection to them, who should we maintain connections to? This or that blog?
There is always a middle-way and I am sure you meant that as well, but the lack of clarity in your comments on this topic could easily be construed as a complete disconnection to people of knowledge, as well as almost implying that such a connection is dogmatic and irrelevant in our times. While an utter god-like reverence for the people of knowledge is unacceptable (which many people do with their “pirs” and “kibaar ulema”), the opposite end of the spectrum is unacceptable as well, where people have no connection to people of knowledge, and not only that, they mock those who carry the knowledge, the “mullahs”, the Shayookh, or the “maulvis”.
assalam alaikum,
Some good stuff, ma-sha-Allah.
Ed: Background/reference check doesn’t equal to dating. You can do the necessary reference checks without haram dating. Actually, sometimes dating is the greatest blindspot, serves to real purpose.
I like the point that Tariq mentioned that “back home” they do extensive family checks. I talked to a brother from Arabia, he said, the mother/sister/father/brother (fact-checking team) will do a full investigation about the prospect before any marriage. Really, nobody takes risk with strangers there.
Also, wali in Islam is supposed to protect female members of our community. But in the abused world, the important role of wali of converts often is handed to a strange bystander who happened to be in the masjid, or wrost the irresponsible imam who the convert sister trusted, but he is wrose than a pimp in protecting her. (sorry to use that language, but lots of sad stories shows how irresponsible those imams are).
May Allah protect the Muslims and protect the people from bad Muslims.
I have to go back to what sister Broken Rib was speaking about. Even with all of the research, spending time together, meeting families etc. there still remains the major issue of sexual compatability which a person can never really know. (And since we as Muslims aren’t talking about it then the problem continues on). I really don’t know what the solution is either. I guess to make du’a asking Allah for a person who is sexually compatiable? That’s the only hope.
I married a 30-something virgin brother who is came from a very conservative Arab culture. I grew up in America and converted to Islam. I had boyfriends and of course a sexual history. I was also married before. (I shared all of this information with the brother so there is no deception on my part). Fastforward. We got married and I knew that he had a learning curve as far as sex was concerned so I resigned myself to being patient. However, after a year of “teaching” and more “teaching” I have come to realize we are not sexually compatiable. We are great together but when sex comes into the picture we argue and fight constantly. He gives me lectures about how haram it is to deny my husband but I can no longer take the two minutes (or less) of him grinding on top of me and falling asleep. Of course, I could never go to my wali and talk to him about this. I mean, how many imams can really take a sister saying what I have to say? I know if I were to approach my wali or go into counseling, because of their cultural bias and prehistoric views about women and how we “don’t need sex like men” they will tell me to be patient. *rolling eyes*Furthermore, it would be very embarassing for my husband.
I have asked for a divorce because I can’t go on like this. It has been six months since the last time we were intimate. And I don;t want to even think about having sex with my husband either. No sex is better than bad sex as far as I’m cocnerned. In all honesty, if I stay with him one of two things will happen: I will eventually cheat on him (and may Allah prevent such a thing from happening) or I will grow to resent him more than I already do.
And what is the solution after divorce? I could still end up in the same situation again. Afterall, this is my second marriage and second time having this problem…
Advice anyone?
Maybe you can clarify
Does he have problems working it? In that case, show him what you got.
Or
Is he not able to keep it up? In that case, it may be a medical condition.
Could be two issues we’re dealing with here…
[...] lima beans. Yes both are good, wholesome, and healthy; I just prefer corn. This relates equally to marriage and preference of a spouse. People would be better off being honest with themselves than forcing themselves into marriages [...]
EXCELLENT advice. Lots of tragedy out there
Law of Attraction
Law of Attraction
[...] or performing Hajj). And when they do find a wali, all too often these ‘guardians’ foolishly press the sisters to get married to the nearest Muslim bachelor (who happens to either be looking for citizenship or [...]
oh my god , I keep talking about this to people , walis / huh what wali ? it is a joke , you have a problem with the guy tommorow your just left their hanging …I dont want to type about it as it is a VERY LONG topic indeed, but i always tell muslim converst DO NOT RUSH INTO Marriage .
I know a few converts who are in a rush to get married despite the fact that other Muslims tell them to slow down. Some young Muslim women believe in knight in shining armors. They are not yet keyed into the realities of marriage and are really interested in what you gain in marriage and what you have to let go of.
I got married after I graduated college to someone I didnt know that well, but my wali and I were with him a lot…Alhumdulliah we are still married 6 and a half years later and have one child. Rushing is one this and Waiting is another, both have their cons and pros. Waiting, you may have sex with that person and rushing you may divorce.. Do not be hasty make Istikarah prayer and Allah (SWT) will guide you and Allah knows best. DONT let peoples CULTURES ruin Islam for you. Read and Educate yourself about your rights, dowry, laws, etc, this is 2007 get tests and do your reseach BEFORE you get married.
I am a white female convert living outside America. I don’t know if I had
even been a Muslim for a week when I was informed that many men in the
masjid had heard of me and were interested in marriage, because I was young
and Muslim men want to marry women who are fertile due to their ‘family
values’. I felt like a piece of meat as my concept of marriage was more than being a
childbearing vessel. Getting married was more important than learning the
correct aqeedah.
An imam from overseas approached me to marry a friend of his who lived in
another country and was already married. The imam said he could vouch for
this brother’s character and that the brother was prepared to come to my
country to marry me without even seeing me. Then I would return with him to
his country. I said that the idea of moving to a foreign country where I
would have no friends or family was scary. The imam told me that the Prophet
(sal Allahou alaihi wa salam) said that whenever someone comes to you whose
religion and character you are pleased with, then you should marry him! I
did not know even know this brother’s name and I don’t think the imam even
knew mine and he never checked my aqeedah or asked if I prayed or anything.
The fact that an imam, despite having emigrated to a Western country, could think that a young, university-educated English woman in her early twenties would be interested in such an arrangement speaks for itself.
One sister e-mailed me an unsolicited photo of a brother who was
available for marriage, as if merely seeing a photo was sufficient for me to
want to jump into marriage.
Yet another sister phoned me to tell me there was a brother who had just
arrived from Egypt three weeks ago and was looking for a bride. No matter
that he would probably experience a period of culture shock and have been
raised with a different concept of marriage than myself.
I also passed on the chance to marry visiting Saudis seeking foreign brides
to take home as souvenirs.
Even funnier is the fact that I had a rather sizable student loan that I tried in
vain to tell people needed to be dealt with before I put myself in a
situation where I could become pregnant, and that I had read that
deliberately not repaying debts is a very serious sin, and that my need to
work may impede my ability to obey my husband, if he objected to a wife who
works. But no! I was reminded again and again that I am a woman and women should marry and stay home.
Marriage is half the Deen and Shaykh so-and-so said not to
worry about debts accrued before Islam. He might not worry, but I certainly
worried about having debts in my name that continued to generate interest.
One sister even suggested that I could bake cakes to sell in the halal butcher’s
to earn money without working outside the home. My resistance to such ideas
was met with shouts of “You’re not following the Sunnah of the Rasool!” (sal
Allahou alaihi wa salam).
I remain unmarried and I suspect I am now less likely to marry and have children BECAUSE I am Muslim, than was the case beforehand.
sister Maghlouba, ur name says it all. Sorry about the insane ones you met back then, from the stupid imam to the last sister telling you to bake cakes!!! They are all ignorant both of Islam and the real world. Alhamdulillah, you were the wise one throughout.
Sister Maghlouba you are one of the ones that had a good head on her shoulders. Many others decided to get married after a week of being Muslim and it was a disaster. Allah blessed you
Maghlouba,
Usually in my community (which is immigrant dominated) white converts get marriage offers right when they convert. No Arab is going to marry a sister of African descent without a glimpse. That’s when you get the excuses about the cultural issues. But they try to marry the African American sisters off to ex-cons who just got out of prison and sells books at the fleamarket. Whatever way it goes, converts often get bad advice. You got to look out for your self and follow common sense and not somebody’s twisted take on Islam.
I agree Aziza. Could not have said it better.
Masha Allah. Thank you all for your supportive comments. May Allah bless you all. Sister Aziza it is very sad to hear about the situation of African American sisters.
Actually, I will add something. I would like to reinforce the decision you made to avoid getting married to those brothers; I think you correct in doing so. Unfortunately, Islamic Shariah and its beautiful teachings and guidance (in and of itself) is not enough to lead people. You must possess knowledge of their culture, taboos, motivation, struggles, governmental structure, political environment, etc. in order to effectively guide people in their daily affairs. The respected Imam, who sounds like he is not from this country, is a prototype of what I mentioned.
I thank you for sticking to what you know was right for you. I hope you keep fighting to resist the quick fix and go for what you know that is right for you. As for the people stating that you should not leave your home because you will not be following the Sunnah. Either they are not privy to the info you provided me or they are misinformed of the Sunnah. Either way there is some ignorance involved.
There is nothing wrong with a Muslimah working [as long as it is Halal work and Halal environment] to pay off her debts and maintain herself. The world has changed. You must possess skills in order to make it here.
Stick to your values and keep making those tough decisions.
Bro. Abdul-Haqq
Jazak Allahou khair for your kind naseeha brother Abdul-Haqq
[...] follow the no free-mixing between the genders without dramatically altering my life–basically get married right away, having tons of babies, and rarely leaving the house. If I followed all the rules of gender segregation I wouldn’t have been able to get my [...]
[...] pains me to say that there is an entire legion of Blackamerican Muslim youth (Many the products of Stranger Marriages) growing up with absentee Fathers. Let me be clear that there are plenty of Blackamerican men [...]
[...] the truth. Others who start shelter projects are told to herd these women all off into a bunch of stranger marriages to get them some shelter. Some activists describe being expelled from mosques and holiday fairs [...]
[...] 10 or 15 times. Just as these brothers did in the streets before they were Muslims, they left a trail of children that they are not taking care of and abandoned women behind as they talked the talk but didn’t [...]
[...] than to help try to stop the litany of bad advice that Blackamerican Muslims are given (usually by other blacks), another great idea is to have [...]
I read the entire post, but not all the comments. Great points. Basically, I see marriage as an opportunity to grow spiritually and the push to find an acceptable outlet for sex is unacceptable.
say it again.
http://foreverloyal.wordpress.com/2007/08/29/love-muslim-american-style-part-i-courtship/
There has got to be a better way.
The whole concept of marriage for Muslims is screwed up. Marrying a complete stranger is insane
[...] I am met my wife and married her 2 days later. It is ten years later and we are still happy, so stranger marriage does [...]
[...] it is as simple as marrying your cousin. However here it is much more complex and marrying a complete stranger after a 30 minute meeting has often led to disaster. I liken these stranger marriages to playing [...]
This was another great post and I hope that this spreads amongst the Muslims. On the surface, my marriage ultimately fell apart because of her being such a salafi cultist, but at the end of the day we were just not compatible and should have never married in the first place. However, had that been the case, I would not have my children.
[...] Comments Salafi Burnout on Hurry and get married … …muslimahlocs on Yuri KochiyamiAbu Usamah al-Aswad on African American Muslims [...]
Tariq N: “This is why I suggest that the wali really ask the references (at least 10 or so) how well do you really know this brother? If you guys are friends, what do you guys do together?
[...] have made marriage a merry-go-around, with multiple marriages and multiple divorces, and eventually multiple children who become the ultimate victims of marriages that never really were “designed” to [...]
This forum is repulsive and totally unIslamic.
Syed Saboor I dont think he intended this site to be “Islamic” I think it’s just his site.
Get rid of this webpage, this webpage is a disservice to Islam!
You Arabs are pigs. You are all a disgrace to true Islam!
Personally, I hope Israel exterminates all of you!
Stranger marriages are the best kind. Marrying a mate you’ve known or had a sexual relationship with is like buying a ticket to a move you’ve watched a dozen times.
And Anthony, Americans like you are pigs as well!
Why you so mad? You come off as an hysterical little girl, I hope your village gets a earthquake.