Embarrassed by the lunatic fringe
Posted on July 10th, 2007 by Tariq Nelson
Update 2: This post by Abu Eesa sums up much of what I feel (hat tip to Austrolabe)
The mind would boggle except that we know that there are Muslims in our communities who have become absolutely oblivious to common sense, religious guidance, and divine warning. What else can we possibly do with them? These brothers and sisters, indeed fellow citizens in the main, have lost total control of their senses and religious priorities and seem intent
Filed under: Muslim Isolation, Sloganism over Reality, The Culture of Denial and Pretense
The Red Mosque incident needs more study. If you look at the route cause of the uproar you would see that this is clearly a case of the elite in Pakistan feeling very threaten by a proposal letter that addressed the wide scale corruption of the government and another gang rape case by high ranking police that the government won’t address.
(Malang) We should be careful to not readily buy this story (western media)…given the context of what has been going on in Pakistan, and this particular struggle, this could just as well be a part of the smear tactics on part of the Pak govt and Gen Musharraf to discredit folks and their demands…they have been using similar smear tactics against the Chief Justice who was illegally ousted by Musharraf which led to a mass movement across the country….
While I do have my reservations about the folks at Lal Masjid, here are two good links, especially the second one:
http://ihsan-net.blogspot.com/2007/07/lal-…d-attacked.html
http://ihsan-net.blogspot.com/2007/04/lal-…-they-want.html
It is interesting how this letter and the rape incident; which was the original cause of all this mess is getting absolutely no press time. It’s not a conspiracy and it’s a well know fact that the elite class in Pakistan is very corrupt and dysfunctional.
Even though my co-workers don’t associate me with the death cult , I still don’t like for Islam to be associated with these mad men
I am not embarassed because I am not living for others or what they think or I would not be a Muslim in the first place as that wins you few friends in America. I am more angry at nuts acting in the name os Islam and people supporting them.
ASA, what happened at the Lal Masjid is a tragedy in so many different ways. The consequences have been devastating obviously for those who lost family members, when Busharraf apparently avoided a last-minute settlement, and they have been devastating for Muslims around the world by a stand-off in a Mosque. It sets a precedent for all the other occupying armies or conflict zones to attack mosques because “it has been done in a ‘Muslim’ country”.
More thoughts including thoughts from Sh. Yasir Qadhi can be found here:
The Lal Masjid Fiasco - Thoughts & Questions
I don’t think you can NOT be embarrassed by this stuff.
It is just disgusting and defies explanation, but of course, by being Muslim, we are forced to explain the crazy stuff all the time. It is just so sad that the media amplifies these nutjobs. It really makes life hard on the other few BILLION Muslims who do not have mental illness.
Oh and last I heard, Farfour the Mouse was “martyred” when he was shot by Israeli soliders in a home invasion of some sort. Guess he didn’t go out the way he’d hoped to.
AA- Tariq,
I too am embarrassed. I am embarrassed by the *images* of these lunatics as portrayed by the governments and their media lackeys+. But let us not be decieved by these images.
(+ in defense of the pakistani media, the government didn’t allow them anywhere close to the Lal Masjid site, so their coverage was actually very limited. However, they should have done more than simply parrot the government story)
I think it behooves us to dig out the facts before making judgments. How many times have we seen governments demonize their political enemies, only to have the truth later exonerate the accused?
Also, it is not fair to lump all these ‘embarrassments’ into a one-size-fits-all generalization. Each one needs to be looked at in its own geo-political, cultural context.
I expect such overly simplistic analyses by the western media, that is too quick to jump on the anti-Islamism bandwagon. I would hope for a bit more from our Muslims in the know.
I am not condoning any of the actions you mentioned in your post. I am merely saying that we need to call for the facts, hear both sides, push away the propoganda, and then make our decisions about right and wrong.
There does exist a middle ground between western apologists and islamic extremists, where the facts, not religious affiliations or political expediency, determine our support and our criticism.
WA-
Naeem
Um, I’m not trying to play the look over there instead of looking at ourselves game but I have to ask: “How is this different than David Koresh or Move in Philly or the Jonestown massacre?”
REALLY, I want to know.
I like Umar do not feel embarrassed. From the limited information that I know it seems much like these aforementioned incidents; a incident stemming from national politics, cultism and power. I think that the Post 9-11 world tends to make us cringe at any negative news about Muslims.
But I think we are giving others too much power when we disassociate ourselves from OUR deen because of embarrassment or fear.
On another note: As my husband pointed out to me people lost their lives and families lost their loves ones. Before we strive to cover face or bask in our distant embarrassment let’s feel sadness for those who died.
Salaam;
Lets be frank, this has nothing to do with Islaam. Its about NAFS, DUNYA Power and Influence over IGNORANT, SHEEPISH Muslims.
What has happened to our intellectual heritage, have we become so enamored in
“
I’m sorry but I don’t personally feel smeared by these people. While I think that the television and the newspapers bring us closer to this event, I still feel too much of a recepient of this as a “news story”. I think that Brother Naeem has been the most level-headed in his emphasis on the politics of this and our inability to fully access its meaning.
When Colin Ferguson acted out on his “black rage” against a general white population I did not feel incriminated.
I am really interested in someone explaining to me this Muslim collective guilt and collective embarrassment. I understand the concept of the ummah but to me this collective guilt is much like white guilt -it really does nothing. Feeling embarrassed to me seems rather useless and self-motivated.
Creating our own space
…I say all this because I was genuinely surprised to read Br. Tariq Nelson?s post, ?Embarrassed by the lunatic fringe? where I feel he was unfair to himself in feeling an emotion of embarrassment, especially when based on narratives created by thos…
Salam,
How can you overlook the ayah,
O ye who believe! If a wicked person (faasiq) comes to you with any news, verify it, lest ye harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what ye have done. (49:6)
You didn’t only quote a Faasiq that spreads propaganda, but it’s a Kaafir source.
Our problem in the Ummah is people like you who jump to accusations based on whatever the West says.
Tariq Nelson = Flip-Flop
@ Samira:
Absolutely we grieve for those that lost their lives at the hands of these lunatics. That is part of what makes it so bad.
The problem with the Colin Ferguson analogy is that he was someone acting alone. What we have are people acting based on an ideology that says to murder and maim. And it happens all the time and not just once every 10 years or so. How many other Colin Fergusons have there been? Look at the carnage caused by the lunatics
The comment below by Abu Eesa pretty much reflects my thoughts on this:
“inshallahshaheed” if you are serious, then you are out of your mind supporting those murders
Inshallahshaheed is an overly verbose, wannabe Jihadi/Takfiri who believes that there are no innocents in the west. Do you know that he believes that even Hamas is an apostate movement, and deep down, he probably believes that most of us are Kuffar as well–remember, there is no excuse for ignorance in matters of Tawhid/shirk.
All he can do is regurgitate the Mukaffir Mutajaahid propaganda that he has learned from distorters like Tibyan. If you disagree with him, he will most probably write a 10 page post refuting you–classical salafi response!
Most likely you can not reason with people like him, because:
1. Reason can not be used–they mistakenly think that because the rational mind cannot judge the divine texts, it cannot be used to understand the texts (or anything else for that matter).
2. They like being ostracized by the Muslims because it confirms their own belief about themselves, that they are the victorious group (al-Ta’ifa al-Mansura), and the Ghuraba’ (the strangers). To them, being in the minority fringe is a badge of honor they wear with pride.
and inshallahshaheed, im not backbiting you, im speaking directly to you
Tariq,
While I appreciate Abu Eesa and your own passionate responses to these issue I have a problem with his logic. You both write of a “lunatic fringe” but then they somehow come in to stand for “the Muslims.” In Abu Eesa’s thoughts there is this black and white separation betweeen the Muslims and the non-Muslims as if our interests do not meet.
The conspiracy theorists do blame others for the actions of wicked individuals. My inclination is to do the opposite-it is to let these people, each one of them, be held responsible for the destruction and havoc they cause. The reason I point to Colin Ferguson is not to have a complete analogy but to articulate that a person can act on a belief/an ideology yet they still must be called to account. They cannot hide behind an identity (Muslim, Christian, American, Black, White) or a belief.
As Brother Naeem, tries to point out each of these cases must be looked at for its own crime. Tariq, I just don’t see where the Lal Mosque stand off is the same as the terrorist plots or 9-11. By grouping them all together you seem to be using the same logic as certain Islamophobes “All these Muslims are the same”. The point is they are not. This is not to excuse their behavior. I am cautious about this because this type of grouping often leads to excessive force and more mayhem.
I am not sure of solutions to these issues. On one hand I think that bombings and war are human rights violations, they are crimes against humanity-so let’s start speaking in that language…
I guess none of you went to the link and read the letter the leader of Lal Mosque wrote that gave the elite class serious cause to pause or the gang rape incident that happened by a higher class police officer and family in the area that the government wouldn’t address. These are the things that got this situation out of control. These guys seem to lean more on the Taliban side in terms of dress but their issues against the state were legit and instead of having a sit down with them to discuss the rapid corruption of the area the elite decided to play the wacko terrorist card and pump out all sorts of very 1 sided stories to the western media. This isn’t conspiracy its just fact and I’m sure these people have done some things a secular society would object to like grabbing pimps off the street and holding them until the promises not to be pimps no more or jacking up drug dealers but nothing in his original letter to the people or his tv interview that was very embarrassing for Musharrif say this man is a wacko.
The majority of the Pakistani people were in agreement with his proposal letter to the state and his TV interview because most of them are lower class and get little to no services from the Gov.
All I’m saying is we should at least try to find the other side of the story ANY story besides swallowing anything the media says about Muslims. Especially, since it seems we only get good press when we
Hijabisoverrated I agree w/ you.
@ Samira:
I totatlly agree with your “agreeing” with Hijabisoverrated. (lol)
I find it very fascinating that some Muslims are quick to attack another for giving naseeha. Read my post again. I just advised him to not accept everything the West says (especially regarding the Mujaahideen since the West loves to portray them as demons) since they are worse than a Faasiq source and so I brought the relevant aayah and then all of a sudden, I’m attacked.
If I were Tariq Nelson and somebody gave me that same naseeha, I would be cringing in my bed the entire night for violating an aayah of Qur’an, especially when I have thousands of readers.
But here, we have people defending him for violating an aayah of Qur’an.
Now I attack hamas (specifically their leadership and not everyone in the movement) because of their Kufr Buwah (Open Kufr) such as rejecting the obligation of establishing the Shari’ah over the areas they control, and participating in elections of Shirk with the enemies of Allah Ta’aala. These are the 2 major sins that brought their leadership closer to Kufr than Imaan.
So I have my dalaa’il from the Qur’an & Sunnah whilst keeping in mind the dangers of Takfeer.
But some Muslims, on the other hand, are quick to attack me without evidence (except their assumptions) and then accuse me of Takfeer as if I am some monster who believes everyone in the West is not innocent. Without verifying their information or understanding, they attack because it makes them feel “intellectual” and “smart” against the “Jihadists.”
So sad, isn’t?
And regarding reasoning with me, it can only happen if you speak from the book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger (s). If you feel better about categorizing me into at-Taai’fah al-Mansoorah and the Ghurabaa’, then be my guest. We don’t care what you think or say because it is evident that once a man makes conclusions from gibberish, then he is speaking from his desires because he is cornered by the evidences. In other words, we call it “character assassination.” In my experience within the field of debate and discussion, it is the last resort of those who are cornered with dalaa’il since they don’t want to admit their misunderstanding.
Unless if you can bring evidences against me, I will gladly discuss them with you.
well, I did say that you were overly verbose didnt I? And, oh yeah, I am not debating you and your ”Dala’il”
Everyone has their Dalil. The issue is Istidlal.
I too agree with the crux of what hijabisoverrated said. I just up a post on my assessment of the Lal Masjid tragedy:
http://brnaeem.blogspot.com/2007/07/lal-masjid-postmortem.html
WA-
Naeem
There are ppl who think that the lal masjid fasica was justified because of the letter he wrote and which ignored. Do you ppl not see that this creates a situation of state within a state?
do you know not see that they had their own judicial system, police?
do you not see that he used children and women as a shield?
did you not see one of the brothers try to run dressed as a woman but was caught because of his pot belly?
did you guys not see that the so called “saviour” said he heard prophet in his dreams and hence decided to take up arms against the government?
did you guys not see the fact that he was “constantly” in touch with media via his mobile?
How can all ppl in their mind complete ignore his lunatic behaviour and now claim that it was because of a letter he wrote reporting a gang rape?
Even if there was a gang rape, what in the world gives him the authority to make the kinds of demand he was making from the government?
to create an extra judicial system within a state?
this is the most absurd reasoning i have heard in my life. the mosque should have been destroyed a long time ago. forget sake ppl, we are talking 10 yrs old being brain washed to die!!!!
I think “muslims” are in serious trouble if they think this is acceptable behaviour.
i think Pakistan, as well as other governments should be taking down these ppls everywhere. If need be their should be blanket bombing to destroy each and everyone of them. yes, there will be civilian casualities, but these are all civilians. Innocents will die at the hand of government, but there are many innocents dying at hand of these manics and worst, many more will die because they will create more like them in the madarrasas and mosque. Muslims or at least sane muslims (if there are any left) need to get in their head that a mosque which is breeding these monsters is not anymore a place is not a place to be protected or guarded. it needs to be destroyed.
@ Avaa:
“If need be their should be blanket bombing to destroy each and everyone of them. yes, there will be civilian casualities, but these are all civilians.”
“the mosque should have been destroyed a long time ago.”
–Exactly. This is precisely what you are your ilk are all about. Democracy at the tip of a bullet. May Allah (Azza wa Jall) guide you and all of those losers whose share your beliefs, Ameen.
Salaam Bro.
Heads up
Did you see the article in the July 11th edition of the Guardian paper with the head line
Salaam Brother:
This post on the Sufi Journey blog explained a lot to me.
http://sufijourneys.blogspot.com/2007/06/my-brother-bomber.html
Ya Haqq!
“The American Evangelical community have been eerily quite about this.”
Because they’re confused as to who they should hate more.
What every happened with the red mosque and it’s fanatical leader, it does not justify the use of women and children as human shields.
Look, most of the Muslim world is controled by corrupt regimes and have cultures that accept, in one form or another, this type of lawless news at the hands of police, government leaders, tribal and family leaders.
But you must oppose these types of things in the right way. I am all for fighting against the corruption of these governments, but one must keep in mind that many of those fighting against it are corrupt or part of their problem in their own ways. Many of the tribal and religious leaders who stand against the governments are just as bad as those governments themselves, just in different ways. They would overturn those corrupt leaders and install their own corrupt, immoral leaderships instead.
No matter what the cause, nothing justifies the use of human shields or the taking of innocent life. Anyone, no matter their cause, who pushes these tactics are no better than the people they are fighting.
Abu Sinan, who ever said that using woman/children as human shields is defensible? I think most of the comments here are clear in their condemnation of such acts.
What we need more of is parsing through the news and reports and getting at the real story behind the story. I think Robert Jensen has a real good article on Counterpunch of you’re interested:
http://www.counterpunch.org/jensen07122007.html
We need to stop with the knee-jerk reaction of instant condemnations to simply appease the West.
WA-
Naeem
@ brnaeem:
“Abu Sinan, who ever said that using woman/children as human shields is defensible?”
–The problem, brnaeem, is that there are some Muslims who take things like the idea of “human shields” (a term used by the Busharraf Govt & Western Media) as a matter of fact…when they themselves were not even near the conflict…have likely never been to Pakistan…or even understand Pakistani religious movements or “madrassa culture” for that matter. Let alone the fact that those youth who emerged from the Lal Masjid came out only to say that people left inside were not being held against their will.
“We need to stop with the knee-jerk reaction of instant condemnations to simply appease the West.”
–I agree.
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lies, lies, lies.
No Muslim doctor would commit such stupid acts, and no Muslim would call upon God’s names like that retarded way the kuffar invented!!!
This whole story was invented to justify the impending crackdown on all religious, successful Muslims who might one day donate money to the movement of Islamic ilberation from the grip of apostates and infidels.
this is merely their next step in drying up the springs that fund “global Jihad”.
BULL SHITTING kuffar!!!! Aljazeera interviewd the father of the Jordanian (Palestinian) guy, one of the accused, and he said that his son is only religious, very intelligent, wouldn’t think of waging jihad AND in Britain!!!!
BULL SHIT!!! Typical of you, kafir liars!!! Just like the myth of finding Saddam in a hole (but your Hollywood directors failed you, and the dates on the palmtrees behind the soldiers who acted like they were just then arresting Saddam, also exposed your stupid funny lie -which only gullible, stupid commoners, Muslims or not, ilke these on this blog, would believe!!!!
Idiot kafirs. You can’t even imitate a Muslim dying? hahahahahHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahhaaaaa
tariq nelson
I remind you and your readers that, if they are Muslim, they must watch the words they speak. Whether or not you are accounting yourself, rest assured that Allah is.
Every time you use the word ‘lunatic’ ‘crazy’ ‘retarded’ ‘maniac’ ‘extremist’ ‘terrorist’ ‘deranged,’ etc. against brothers such as Samir Khan…you are bankrupting yourself.
I’m not talking about when you insult the people who actually do the ‘terror killings’ and such. That is not the point I’m bringing up here. The point I’m bringing up is: You see a Muslim who you think is very misguided, what do you do? Pray for him, or publicly insult him for all the world to see? For every person that reads your public insult of your brother, you add to your misery and regret on the Day of Resurrection. May I remind you of the following hadith of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (sallaAllahu ‘alayhi wassalam)?
Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated that the Messenger of Allah (sallaAllahu ‘alayhi wassalam) said:
So many useful idiots here, speaking their minds, in full suppoprt of and by, Allah.
The West and all non-Muslims could not possibly afford this free publicity into the mind of a Muslim.
Keep it up boys and girls, I say.
Salaam.