Couple of items…
- Event shows N Virginia Muslims’ clout.
More than 50 candidates in this fall’s elections are expected to appear in Reston tomorrow at a political picnic organized by a group of Northern Virginia mosques, and organizers say the heavy turnout underscores the growing influence of Muslim voters in local politics.
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- I found the “God’s Warriors” series to be pretty fair and interesting. Many did not like it because she shows that there are terrorists and extremists other than Muslim ones. Also, not everyone in the series was an extremist.
One of the things I picked up during the Muslim part was the unfortunate tendency of some Muslims to see Western Society in extreme caricatures wherein they think every single Westerner (even sometimes including Muslim Westerners - especially converts) has no family values or basic morals. We are all just a bunch of people out for materialism. Certainly this exists, but it is mistaken to portray all of us in this manner. But then again, some people (of all religions) MUST see the world in very stark black and white terms.
For those that did not see it, you can pick through the clips here
Filed under: Changing World
The Shia didn’t look very good with all of their superstitions on full display, praying to Hussein, talk of Imams in the sky, their nutty President and their evil and bankrupt “Islamic” state’s oppression of everyone living under it. If that regime falls, the people living under it will probably become atheists the next day. They have a religion that I do not recognize at all
I thought her analysis was rather naive.
There are criminals/terrorists in and of all religions but there is one major difference. One of these religions can underwrite violence directly because of the writings and actions of it’s prophet and his delivered word of God.
The other two can not.
As salaamu alaykum,
I didn’t watch the series, so I can not comment on that. Jamal the Shi’a don’t pray to Hussein nor do we have a President. Iran is an overwhelmingly Shi’a country, but Iranians are not the only Shi’a. Let’s not confuse politics and culture wars with Islam. Iran does not = Shi’a Islam anymore than Saudi Arabia (or wahhabism for that matter) = Sunni Islam.
@ patb
You are wrong. Just as one example, the KKK underwrote their actions from the Bible and often the grand wizard of the local KKK was the pastor of the church. An unwritten rule in many white (Read: Southern Baptists) churches today is that blacks are not welcome.
I don’t want to play tit for tat here, but let’s be fair
PATB,
Ever read The Bible? You are aware that David, one of the main charcters in the text and very important to both Christians and Jews, sent the husband of a woman re coveted to the front of a battle knowing he’d be killed and this allow David to take his wife?
Sounds like a great example Jews and Christians could used to justify almost anything, including murdering you to steal your spouse.
Settlers in Israel use the Old Testiment to justify their wishes to ethnically cleanse Christians and Muslims from the land, they use verses in the Old Testament to show where God demands the Israelites to destroy certain groups of people, even the women and chldren. It was interesting to see in a Jewish settlement a sign that read “Arabs to the Gas Chambers”. All founded on their Old Testament texts.
The Old Testament gives us a story about two young daughters getting their father drunk and having sex with them. Wow, the amazing things that would teach Christians and Jews. Maybe that is the root of the problem with Catholic priests?
See, as most conservative Christians and Jews think the Bible is the revealed word of God, then the same argument could be made about them.
Israelites were told to attack a city or a village and allow the men women and children to surrender, if they didnt God allowed them to slaughter all men and little boys and sell the women and girls as slaves, or take them as their own to do as they wish. For certain tribes the Israelites were commanded, by God, to attack their cities and kill everything that lived in the cities, down to the infants and animals. Ethnic cleansing, genocide, it is all there, in the revealed word of God for Jews and Christians.
I suggest you read The Bible and the way the Prophets are depicted in it before you start talking about someone else.
The Shia on this program certainly did. And they were explaining why they beat themselves on Ashoora. No mention though of their hatred of Abu Bakr, Umar and others.
What is shiaism except for hatred of many of the companions?
Great blog Sardis. Keep it up.
I LOVE IT.
Abu,
Yes I’ve read the bible and there are many examples (such as you stated) of sins against God. Those two examples are written to show the destruction of Sin and not something to emulate.
The other religion that Christine A mentioned has over 100 verses “condoning” violence and spreading the faith thru or under the shadow of the sword.
There are examples of murder and killing in all of the books, the predicament of man, however, when done by man for his own ends it is a sin in two of the books and glorified in the other.
Abu,
Forgot one thing.
In the Old Testiment the Israelites were told to attack certain peoples that had displeased God. However, God was very specific in naming the town and people and the time. He, God, did not say “Kill them for all time” or give general verses to that would last thru out history, these were specific events and one time events.
This was before the sacrifice of Christ when God was almost unapproachable and not pleased with man. Christs sacrifice changed that and that is the message, we can approach God individually, without all of the orchestrated ceremony and petty rules of the old testiment, how you pray is not important but what you pray is.
How many times did Christ kill or order killings? How often did he lead his followers into battle and then sack the city, despoil the countryside. take slaves and kill the males?
There is another religion that has very non specific orders and verses that give open ended instructions to violence that are used by certain people today, 1400 plus years later to underwrite killing men, women and children and this is done in the name of their God.
Huge difference.
Sameer,
You may be correct in that. Many depradations have been made in the name of God but there has never been a Baptist National Organization that has supported the KKK thru doctrinal interpretation and none does today. I believe this to be an anomely that, sadly, lasted over 100 years but is not a major issue today (admittidly the KKK still exists as a few kooks much like the Nation of Islam exists and neither mainstream Christianity or Sunni/Shia Islam claim either, they are both considered racist organizations that interpret their religions as white/black and both equal satan in their warped eyes).
However, the call to Jihad (lesser if you will and the institution of Sharia) and the loose interpretation of who is fighting/demeaning Islam/ who can create fatwas and interpret and condone violence is a mainstream Islamic issue dating back almost 1500 years.
This is not an anomely but the norm.
There is no corresponding “call to Jihad” in Christianity based only on a religious basis as the reformation and enlightenment period dealt with the issue of government/God and there never existed Biblical verses to support it anyway. There has been no such event in Islam and I’m not sure if there ever will be based upon the Islamic founding documents as spreading the religion or at least Sharia was/is condoned theologically and that cat’s hard to put back in the bag.
Yes, we have our nuts in this country but that’s what they are and are out of the mainstream.
Just for conversations sake, identify an Islamic State that truley endeavors to allow freedom of religious choice.
Would you be upset, if say, when you travelled to Italy all of your Qur’ans were taken from you and state laws existed persecuting any other religion except Catholicism. This doesn’t seem to upset any Muslims in Saudi Arabia ar anywhere else for that matter.
I know, you’re not a Saudi and all but where are the holiest sites of Islam, where does one go for the pilgrimage and where do many of the most radical comments from Islamic scholars come from. Hard to disassociate oneself from the ‘Klan’ when one takes part in the ceremonies.
I’d not set foot in a church where I believed racists proliferated and preached, and I’m not saying you support the actions of the radicals but there is a closeness in the Umma that is both heartwarming in it’s solidarity and slightly sinister in it’s failure to call to comment those that espouse the most extreme ideas in the name of God.
You know what struck me that both the Christian and Muslim fundamentalists had that sort of view. That the US and the West are in some kind of moral decay with rampant materialism.
I do think many wealthy countries like the US are very materialistic, but I wouldn’t frame it in the way that the extremists do.
I think patb may be a troll, but I just wanted to correct him. He said, “Many depradations have been made in the name of God but there has never been a Baptist National Organization that has supported the KKK thru doctrinal interpretation and none does today.”
Actually, Baptist churches were integral in helping organize KKK members. They opened up churches for KKK meetings, and help the KKK organize through their churches since many of their members were active in the KKK. The Baptist church and the KKK go waaaaay back.
@ Rachel
As I mentioned above the PASTOR of the church often doubled as the Grand Wizard of the local Klan. The Klan was definitely definitely rooted itself in Christianity and saw liberals who wanted to end segregation as non-Christians
Sameer/Rachel,
I’m sure you are correct about that period of our historical past but racism is not a Christian tenet and therefore, they were not espousing Christian ideals.
If you want to talk racism/slavery there are still slaves taken today in Darfur by Muslims and sold outright.
Slavery wasn’t outlawed in Saudia Arabia until 1964 and historically speaking more African slaves were imported over a longer period of time to the Mid East than went to Europe or the America’s.
So by your standard Islam is a religion that supports slavery.
What about the rest of the comments I’ve made or are we just gonna talk race.
FYI,
I know that no one on this blog supports slavery.
Your point is that Christianity officially supported it, or attempoted to deny equal rights thru the KKK (I agree about your historical anaylsis but disagree that the Bible supports the KKK in any way, ahape or form- they that espoused this would be heretics).
Having said that, slavery was a world norm until a recently (200 +/- years) and is mentioned in all of the major religious tenents.
My point here is that Islam has it’s own dirty laundry and this is not a ‘white’ issue alone, hence a comment by an Islamic watcher of world events
“While the vast majority of contemporary Muslims agree that there is no place for slavery in the modern world, there has not been a strong internally developed critique of past or present slaveholding practices. In fact, modern Muslims have generally devoted little attention to thinking about or discussing the religious, ethical, and legal issues associated with slavery, perhaps because it is difficult to acknowledge and confront the scriptural and traditional permission for it. Yet it is possible to analyze slavery (as well as other forms of gross social inequity) as inconsistent with basic Qur
patb
All I was saying is not to pretend that people like the KKK and others did not USE the bible to justify white supremacy for hundreds of years while at the same time you claim that Islam is somehow inherently evil.
Can someone tell me that the function of the average American is other than to work and breed? They did not care much about anything else than taking care of home and family, quarreling with neighbors, watching movies and sports, drinking beer, and buying lottery tickets. Did I miss anything?
Sameer,
I hear you but what I’m saying is what verses in the Bible did the Klan use to justify white supremacy. My point is that they were not quoting/applying the scripture properly and were heritical in that supposition.
I do not believe Muslims to be ‘inherently evil’ but I do believe that proclaiming the Prophet Muhammed as the perfect path and example of mankind can lead to a 7th century interpretation of ‘good and righteous’ that includes slavery, violent Jihad other than defensive, and other 7th century practices that most of the civilized world has outgrown/condemed. The example of the present day Arab Berbers raping their captives and using the Qur’an/Sunna’s as upholding their acts is simply a footnote reflecting that interpretation.
Drake, yes, you missed paying taxes, educating kids that produce the majority of the scientific and medical advances of the world, going to church. You missed that more immigrants approach our shores than any other country in the world and many other things.
I suggest you see your psychiatrist again.
Once you start comparing the KKK to jihadist you are losing the arguement. Oh and btw, the KKK wasnt around for hundreds of years. They are shunned in American society today. Cant say the same for jihadists in Islamic society.
Poor rachel. Someone who defends their views is a troll? LOL
Drake also missed giving foreign aid to ungrateful Islamic countries.
PATB,
I love your selective quotation of Kecia Ali Ali’s work is in fact in collaboration with The Feminist Sexual Ethics Projects which examines the impact of slavery in ALL of the Abrahamic faiths. I would suggest that you email Kecia at Boston University and see if she agrees with your interpretation of her work. You might also do well to look at this also:
Slavery was part of life in the biblical world, and slave women experienced it differently than slave men. Even ancient Israelite and early rabbinic law treated enslaved women differently from enslaved men and enslaved Israelites differently from enslaved foreigners.
The New Testament commanded slaves to obey their masters in all things. Owners sometimes coerced their enslaved women, girls, and boys into sex or made them work as prostitutes; enslaved Christians were therefore burdened with the pain of exploitation compounded by the moral dilemmas posed by the teachings of their church. Some early Christians spoke out against the sexual exploitation of enslaved persons, but their writings do not speak of punishing Christian men for sexually exploiting their slave girls or women. Christian mistresses, sometimes out of jealousy, could also treat their human property with great cruelty.
Feminist Sexual Ethics Project scholars are researching the life circumstances of enslaved women and girls and of slaveholding women in the Bible and in the early centuries of Christianity, a subject to which historians have thus far paid little attention.
THE POINT is that there is not just dirty laundry concering slavery in the Muslim world but also within Judaism and Christianity. There is actually an increasing number of scholars (Muslim and non-Muslim) who are examing the meaning of race and slavery in traditional Islamic literature. One scholar argues that much of the racism found in classic Islamic literature was produced by Judaic scriptures which demeaned blackness and Greco-Roman philosophy. But there are probably more opinions:
A small bibliography on Christianity and slavery:
Harrill, J. Albert.
Elric-you need to take a history or read a book that is not just anti-Islam rhetoric. You know little about the history of the Klan and the power it held over this nation and government.
Oh where is our resident historian Margari when we need her? haha.
I do have one question for everyone.
Where in the bible is slavery directly condemned?
There are numerous references to the freeing of slaves in the Qur’an. While both texts represent societies where slavery was the norm…where does the Bible attempt to rectify slavery through an evolutionary emancipation in a manner similar to the Qur’an?
Samira,
Cristianity does mention slaves as the norm but in the context of telling believers to follow the law of the land, basically again “to Ceasars what is Ceasars and to God that which is Gods”. It is basically ambivalent about the practice that was the norm for the world at that time neither supporting or denying.
The Christian concept of secular law and religious doctrine being separate allows for intellectual growth in man as it relates to individual rights and the abolishment of the practice of slavery. Historically, slavery was abolished in the Western world from within, thru intellectual growth and enlightenment and there were no Christian religious concepts to impede this.
The Qur’an, on the other hand institutionalizes slavery 33:50, 23:5,70:30 and also covers that one should not push ones slaves into prostitution, elsewhere that one can free ones slaves etc.
Ibn Sa’ds “Tabaqat” articulates that Muhammed had sex with his Coptic slave girl and had a son by her that dies 18 months after his birth. Muhammed took slaves and dealt them out to his followers (as did any warlord of the time), the problem is that since Muhammed is held forth as a perfect example one could say that taking slaves or treating hostages in the same manner as happened in the 7th century would be fine as Muhammed did it. As a side note every female POW captured in the 1st Iraq war was sexually assaulted as they were captured Kufaar and the spoils of war. Qur’anically supportable.
The Qur’an in practice and in writing never led to an emancipation of slaves, slavery still exists in some Islamic countries, real pure slavery of the kind experienced in the 7th century.
Western countries do not have slavery and have been founded on Christian/Judeo principles that led to the abolishment of slavery.
The issue is that you are talking about slavery in the west hundreds of years ago and I am talking about slavery in Islamic states today, right now. The proof of the power of the two scriptural concepts as it regards slavery is in the practices we see today, not the footnotes of books extolling the past practices of either.
On a similar note.
I’ve lived and travelled in the Mid East since the early 80’s and am amazed at the second rate status of Islamic women, the status of non Islamic women is next to nothing wether slave, household servant or not. I’m always dumbfounded at the ‘women libbers’ (US Muslim and non Muslim) that support this, excuse this, rationalize this wether it’s genital mutilation, honor killing, stoning, or any of the myriad shakles that keep women as property. They say that many institutionalized convicts are actually afraid of freedom after a point.
Similarly PATB,
So basically the Bible never mentions emancipating slaves.
You didn’t need to write five paragraphs of gibberish to answer my question.
The last thing I will say to you PATB is that you need to be careful of your methodology.
You haphazardly quotes verses of the Qur’an then draw lines directly from the Qur’an to contemporary Muslim societies.
Then of course throw in the treatment of women.
I just don’t have the energy to talk to you.
What about the spanish inquisition and the crusades ….and the contemporary crusades lead by one who is under the direct command of god to protect the liberty, freedom , blah and blah and blah …christians who defend the so called peace of their religion are a bunch of hypocrites …..
You think most Muslims like the jihadists? …they are a radical fringe ..that most Muslims wouldn’t even have seen some one preach stuff ..we are in disbelief..they create more problems for us than any one else in the planet
Western society is founded not christianity but on a movement against christianity. …its called secularism and chrisitanity is not secular …secularism just watered down christianity ..and reduced the effect of church on the masses …..
The Crusades were called up after 400 years of Islamic aggression towards Europe.
And if the jihadists are a radical “fringe” How do they hold so much sway in the Islamic world?
As for slavery, its still practiced in the Islamic world like in Sudan. ANother point. Mo owned and took slaves. Jesus didnt.
Western society’s don’t have slaves? You are completely wrong. What about sweat shops and human trafficing in Eastern Europe. What about prositution rings where women are locked up?
The reason why you and PATB come off as complete Islam bashers instead of people interested in fruitful discussion is because you assume a direct connection between the practice of slavery in the society of early Islam or the mention of slavery in the Qur’an and the modern day practice of slavery in places like Mauritania or the Sudan.
If you tried this stuff on a historian or economist they would laugh at you because a) what do we know about the practice of slavery in these areas BEFORE Islam b) how has the modern economy or culture changed/altered the practice of slavery c) can we assume that everyone who calls him/herself Muslim and thus holds a slave is doing it because of his/her religious affiliation rather than their cultural affiliation or system of economics. We definitely cannot look at the Sudan as the ideal version of an Islamic society.
Muslim does not equal walking Qur’an or Shariah. Like other people of faith sometimes we do things in spite of our scripture.
My understanding is that the Prophet Muhammed had a small amount of time to implement change in his society. What he did accomplish was amazing. Yet this is also why you see a call to free slaves throughout the Qur’an and also a move to change the system of slavery.
Instead of jumping from early Islamic history to the modern day so haphazardly using unstable violent societies (Sudan) to represent YOUR vision of Islam -you need to listen to what MUSLIMS and contemporary scholars actually feel about slavery and the intentions of the Qur’an. Stop telling us what our faith says and start listening or just move one if you don’t want to engage in fruitful exchange.
Slavery and the Qur’an
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/015-slavery.htm
Why did Mo take slaves in the first place.?If he was such a noble person and a prophet of God, why would he do that?
Samira,
I believe you’ve run out of a debatable position not energy.
Anonymous,
The Spanish Inquisition and Crusades? That’s relevant to todays activities. The present war and political position the US is in today is because of energy and the lack of stability in the Mid East coupled with radical Islamists that desire a Caliphate and figure we, the US, to be a primary obstacle to that endeavor. It has nothing to do with Christianity otherwise we would be attempting to convert Muslims, erect Churches etc and none of that has happened. As a matter of fact our Christian Chaplains are told to respect the local religions and only work with US soldiers.
Wester society is formulated on Judeo/Christian principles and I’ll use the US as an example.
Muslims doctrine are not to be read but to be followed. It amazes me that people are always talking about what other countries are doin when there seems that they lack hind sight in looking at what doctrines are manufacturing themselves in this country .
One is the the beleif that hip-hop is the do right thing in america .
That blasting every black man and letting go of every white women is the justice that will lend to land of amercican acceptance
Trish,
I really don’t understand your post as it relates to my questions. I was asking a question about Islamic doctrine.
I do not think the gangster culture (hip hop) to be beneficial to anyone black/ white or whatever.
I’m not sure about your black men and white women comment except that it might be more applicable to another thread.
PATB,
I really did run out of energy. I could debate you all day…but the point is that I am partial to dialogue not debate and I find your positions rather ill-informed. They are a conflation of Middle East politics and Qur’anic references with little regard to the science of the Qur’an. I am not a scholar of Qur’an or Hadith but I am a student of tajweed & tafsir. Your methodology is wrong. At least have enough respect for the methodology of how you approach the Qur’anic text.
Now as a literary scholar, I understand that when I approach a text I must use the guidelines of the MLA and build upon a tradition of scholarship. As my MA advisor informed me I must engage with the past criticism of my present text. Your slapdash scholarship is an insult.
But I will respond to your insistence that Muslims are caught in the 7th c:
You have an intense misunderstanding about the way in which Muslims view the seerah of the prophet Muhammed (not surah as you mis-stated in your comments), his sunnah and the application of hadith.
Many Muslims who are not scholars and Muslim scholars are interested in the application of the Qur’an and the sunnah WITHIN their own contemporary context. It is not a simple game of applying 7th century mores to contemporary society. If you find this to be false simply visit the website of the Zaytuna Institute.
There is not a simple replication of the prophet Muhammed’s life. Within classic Islamic scholarship there was an understanding that there was things that were unique to the prophet and that there were things that were to be understood as beneficial to all Muslims. Not everything that the Prophet did was to emulated by his followers. Now scholars did disagree about what those things were because -(this is something that you fail to acknowledge in your gross generalizations about Islam)- there was a diversity of opinion among classical jurists.
There are oppressive religious regimes that attempt to deny plurality within Islam. There are oppressive Muslims who attempt to squash diversity within Islam. There are psuedo-scholars who throw in a couple of hadith here and some Qur’an there and try to make it law. Now if these are the models that you want to take to symbolize all of Islam–so be it.
Enough said.
Samira,
I admit to being a product of my experience and also admit that I do not truley know any US Muslims to any depth. Therefore you may be correct in your interpretation of my strict adherence to non negotiable Islam. I truley hope that US converted Muslims do selectively emmulate aspects of the sunnah. I have found that the foreign immigrated Muslims to be rather old school.
My experience comes from living/working in Jordan, Egypt, SA, and most recently my last two years in south east Afghanistan working with the Afghanis on a dailey basis (was not a soldier). I truley enjoyed the experience and like the Afghans and hope they succeed to develop a real country again.
I’ve just had too many experiences, with Mullah’s that I liked, knew well and respected that simply interpreted the Qur’an etc. in that same 7th century manner and painfully so. Marriage of children to men in their 50’s, blood payments for horrible crimes, and the one of the worst and most pervasive was the male defensiveness about educating girls/women.
I know that Afghanistan and especially the Pashtun south is truley an uneducated area but I ran into the same issues in SA and Jordan. Surprisingly, Syria with its dictatorship is one of the least Islamic countries I’ve experienced.
I guess I get excited when I hear Ibrahim Hooper of CAIR articulate that he would like to see Sharia as the law of the US. I know all Muslims don’t desire that but I hear enough of those (US Imams etc.) that articulate the same message. Do you support Sharia as a viable system of governing within our borders?
As you stated their is much disagreement among Muslim scholars as to what is right and correct so anyone can ‘cherrypick’ the Qur’an, Muslim or non Muslim, to support many different positions.
Finally, I’ve seen secular Muslims in our country decried as non Muslim and called out as ‘not Muslim enough’ unless they took a victimization approach. I’ve read posts on blogs similar to this one where one Muslim blogger will tell another Muslim blogger to basically ’shut up’ because a kufir my read their opinion of dissent and detect weakness in the Umma. Kind of a ‘borg’ thing.
I’m also sure that I would agree with many of your comments as you seem a thoughtful and intelligent individual seeking your own truth.