Justifying Evil
Posted on May 31st, 2008 by Tariq Nelson
Umm Zaid wrote about the way some of us justify madness in the name of Islam, make excuses and look the other way. I hope that she is not called a “Zionist agent” and “spy” for this:
This is not Islam, we know it. We know it, but he doesn
Filed under: The Culture of Denial and Pretense
Salaam ‘Alaikum
Thank you.
Tariq/Umm Zaid
Here are a few issues I have. While I laud the two of you speaking out against these actions done in the name of your religion, from what I can ascertain, there is something that seems to foster this type of action within Muslim countries in the name of your religion. Sure you can cite evil in non-Muslim countries, but how much of it happens in the name of religion?
If Islam is so against these actions, then why is there not more outcry from the leaders in these countries? Where is the widespread outrage when there is an honor killing? Are the people that are outraged so rare that they say nothing? Or is it that this is a more accepted thing than either of you are willing to admit?
Will either of you (or any other Muslim) deny that Islam declared war on every major religion in the world and that there is a mandate to subjugate people of other religions? Will any of you deny that there were military campaigns to subdue and subjugate the surrounding territories with non-Muslims being given the choice to become muslims, accept dhimmitude or go to war.
In 300 years time Muslims had conquered two-thirds of the Christian world by the sword, from North Africa to Spain
Today, there is not another religion in the world that consistently produces terrorism in the name of religion as does Islam.
Will either of you deny that the most dangerous Muslims are nearly always those who interpret Islamic teachings most literally. They believe in an Islamic mandate to spread Islamic rule by the sword and put to death those who will not submit.
You all consistently say that these people are misinterpreting your religion, but they are they not acting by the most literal interpretation and quoting Islamic scholarship? Do they not have history on their side. You all on the other hand, seem to believe in a benign Islam that believes in peace with its neighbors and indefinitely believe in equal rights for non-Muslims. Where is this Islam in the history of the world that you all practice and believe in?
Stan,
Did you forget that in Ireland for years the Catholics and the Protestants killed each other in the name of religion? The killing just stopped in recent years. Islam isn’t the only religion whose followers have killed for the sake of their religion.
Don’t you also forget that centuries ago it was Christians who were seeking to cleanse the world of non-Christians. The fact that they weren’t Christians is one of the reasons why the Native Americans were nearly exterminated here in the US by Europeans who came here seeking religious freedom. Too bad they didn’t believe that freedom should be afforded to other human beings.
Even Christian missionaries in Africa and South America murdered and mutiliated the natives that weren’t quick to convert to Christianity.
The Muslims of today are just unfortunate that today their atrocities are captured on camera for the world to see.
“Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” If you’re going to condemn Islam for the violence and hatred in their religion, condemn the other religions too that have and are still doing the same.
Saadiyah,
I am sure that you are a peaceful Muslim and believe that the religiously motivated violence in Islam’s name is just “random”. People like yourself, Umm Zaid and Tariq are “Westernized” or “Christianized” Muslims. Your co-religionists would make ‘takfir’ of you for your views.
I never said that no on ever at any time killed in the name of another religion. You are grasping at straws. The Irish conflict was contained in Ireland while the terror that we have seen from fanatical Muslims has hit nearly every continent on the planet. There have been over 11,000 terror attacks carried out in the name of Islam since 9/11. How many carried out in the name of other religions? I am sure there are some random examples out there, but does it come close to what we see from radical Muslims?
We (unfortunately) have plenty of criminals who commit murders, robberies or rapes, but I don
By the way, is it expecting too much to actually expect someone to answer the questions I have posed?
11,000 terror attacks? Good grief, where did you get that number? Is this an FBI or CIA statistic? Sister Saadiyah answered your questions. You just didn’t like her answers.
Please read up on honor crimes and actually DO something about them like joining an honor crimes prevention organization. You can even donate money (if you not doing that already). You will discover that men and women, Muslims and non-Muslims, are victims of honor crimes. One young Palestinian woman was murdered by her father because she was a Christian who wanted to marry a Muslim.
Muslims have lived (and continue to live peacefully) with non-Muslims for centuries in many places like Jordan, Singapore, Malaysia and Egypt. There will always be extremists, on all sides of a conflict, willing to cause violence. But most people, of all faith, are peaceful. Even in Iraq, Muslims and Christians, Sunnis and Shia, lived next door to each other in peace BEFORE American military intervention in 2003. So, yes, there is a mandate from God to Muslims that we should live with others–as American Muslims are living here and contributing good to American society. And no, NOTHING in our scripture says you should kill a person for not wearing Islamic clothing. But I think you already know that. And no, there is no mandate to crush people of other faiths. I don’t believe that to be true of Christianity even though it didn’t stop European powers from ruling and subjugating millions of non-White, non-Christian peoples for centuries. Those European soldiers didn’t think twice about raping, killing and conquering those who were of a different skin color or religion. On the contrary, they believed it to be a mandate from God in order to civilize the world.
Stop thinking that any decent Muslim who condemns violence is a Westernized or Christianized Muslim. That’s about as sensible as me calling a good Christian an “Islamized Christian.” Our coreligionists would condemn us? Unless you take a opinion poll of every Muslim in the world, you’re guessing and making grand assumptions based on ignorance. Educate yourself, get active, and check the violence in your own society just as people like Umm Zaid and Tariq are addressing the violence in our society.
If she DID happen to get called a “zionist agent”, she could join the club with my husband and I!!
Been there.
@ izzymo
Assalaamu Alaykum, your response as lucid as it is dosen’t answer “Stan’s” questions directly and he knows this.
His questions are loaded and based on dubious stats. So they not deserve an answer. That’s like someone saying every few minutes a women is beaten or raped in America, then asking you, so did you stop beating your wife today?
So you are forced answer on his grounds or be accused of evading the questions.
These types of immature intellectualy stunted discourses should be avoided. As “Stan’s” carefully worded questions reflect “he” is fully aware that Islam is a total way of life which includes social, governace, diet and religion (faith).
So if he wants to ask what is the position of Islam on the co-existance with societies other faiths, this can be discussed buut again “he” already knows the answer.
If “Stan” wants to discuss the position of Islam on “honor killing” again this can be discussed as well as the Islamic penalties for various offenese as well as the proofs required to enact the various penalties.
Again all of this “Stan” has read before, “he” is not seeking truth only arguementation.
Yes, and I am also fully aware that Islam contains a mandate to conquer and subjugate. You are aware of it as well. Then my next question is that why the charade in pretending to be a religion that believes in equality of all religions? Let’s be honest. But then again “war is deception” right?
hey Stan,
You’re funny, to be baited or debated, which are you looking to do? LOL LOL You speak of being honest, then you should start first. Stop asking loaded questions in an effort to build weak syllogisms as if you are dealing with novices.
Stop it!! LOL LOL look “dude” this is really funny you’re killing me LOL If this is the best you can do I’m sure you had major problems in introductory logic 101 in college. LOL
Mr Al-Aswad
I suppose you are denying what I am saying then in spite of the fact that there are clear hadith that back up my point. Anyone with a mind can see that you are the one trying to change the subject. What is wrong with my questions? Are you afraid of the answers? If I am lying, then prove it with Islamic texts
Let’s debate whether or not there is a mandate in Islam to subjugate non-Muslims shall we based on Islamic texts. Do you accept?
I also know that with you all “war is deception” [sound hadith] so I anxiously await your (or anyone else’s) response
Stan,
I think the fact that war is deception is a universal principle “all is fair in love and war” isn’t that what “you all” say?!?!?
“Let’s debate”–let’s not.
I’m not a Muslim, just a Christian who also happens to be a long-time resident of Saudi Arabia (Big Bad Wahhabi Land). I have encountered views like Stan’s before on the Internet. If you’re a Muslim, or somebody who has lived in a country where Muslims make up the majority of the population, you are not qualified to speak about your own experiences or to claim any significant degree of knowledge about Islam. Real knowledge is the preserve of people like Stan - Westerners who have read assiduously about Islam on a few select websites, who maybe even own a few books (none of them authored by Muslims), and who drop a few Arabic terms into their conversation as a way of showing off the level of their scholarship and expertise. It doesn’t matter whether you are somebody who has never picked up a Qur’an before or a senior lecturer from al-Azhar University - if you’re Muslim, you can’t know what you’re talking about, and people like Stan have to educate you about what your religion ‘really’ teaches. Just as they have to explain to me that I am a dhimmi, a second-class citizen, a substandard human being, etc., etc. Anything that I say about my life in Saudi is irrelevant: these scholars know exactly what it’s like over there (despite never having been), so I should just sit down, shut up, and let them educate me.
Their qualifications rest on the kind of quasi-omniscience that Stan claims in his opening post. He asks where all the outrage is about honour killings. As HE hasn’t heard enough outraged Muslim voices or seen anything being done to curb honour killings, it logically follows that Muslims must either be complicit in honour crimes or apathetic towards them - because if Stan hasn’t heard any outrage being expressed, no outrage exists. If it did, he’d surely know about it.
So never mind the numerous articles that I’ve seen in Al-Ahram, the women’s rights organisations that are cropping up all over the Middle East, the prominent activists such as Reem Abu Hassan and Nadia Shamroukh. If I were a gambling type, I would be willing to lay a considerable sum of money that Stan has never even heard of these people or organisations, let alone financially supports them. It’s easier to sit at home in a comfortable American armchair and preach on how Islam promotes violence against women, non-Muslims, etc. than it is to open your eyes and actually see the peace and social justice work that is being carried out…by Muslims and in the name of Islam Unfortunately for Stan, a lot of that work is taking place in non-Western countries and in languages other than English, which means that for people with ethnocentric planks in their eyes, it might as well not exist at all.
“Do you (or any other Muslim) deny that…?” The phrasing of Stan’s questions suggests that he has got hold of a fact that it is impossible to deny, and that anybody who tries to make a denial must be a ‘Christianized/Westernized Muslim’. (Stan, of course, is the only person with the power to define what a Muslim is - Muslims themselves need not apply.) Those questions are not designed to be answered. They’re designed as a diagnostic tool. Which type of Islam do you suffer from? Are you a full-blooded, bloodthirsty, vicious Mozlem, or is your Islamic tumour of the more benign Westernized kind? And don’t you dare protest and say that you don’t believe in the ‘Islam’ that Stan has presented to you - the nature of Islam has already been decided for you, and is not up for debate. If you try to do that, you’re just avoiding the question!
Saadiya’s reference to Ireland was in fact very pertinent, as the violence there was created by a complex and politically charged set of circumstances that stretch all the way back to the English conquest in the seventeenth century. Religion, nationalism, freedom - they formed an explosive mix and the repercussions are still being felt today. The reason why the physical conflict remained (for the most part) confined to Ireland is not because Irish people are naturally bloodthirsty, but because their concerns were bound up with that particular nation. Yet in this global village, Muslim concerns are bound up with a variety of places - Chechnya, Palestine, Iraq, etc. The lingering aftermath of colonialism adds still more countries to the map, as the repercussions of Empire, invasion, and subjugation are still being played out in North Africa, India, and Pakistan, to name just a few places. (The Indian Muslims who converted to Christianity in times of drought and famine because missionaries promised them food in exchange for baptism gives a whole new meaning to Stan’s term ‘Christianized Muslim’. So-called powder-milk Christians still exist in India today.) It is easy for people who are ignorant of their own countries’ chequered histories to turn the current problems of the world into a simple conflict between good and evil, between the Muslim hordes and the civilised West, as they just don’t realise that our current situation doesn’t boil down to religion alone. It is the product of complex historical circumstances - not a cluster of verses plucked at random from the Qur’an.
After numerous years in a Muslim country and a strong education in Islamic theology, which, all being well, will lead to a PhD, I have yet to see any evidence that suggests Islam itself endorses violence, oppression, and all the rest of it. And I’ve read the Qur’an in full, with years of teaching that drew on commentaries both classical and modern. This, I suspect, is more than can be said for Stan. In my experience, people like this tend to have read websites that push a specific agenda with a few quotations from Bukhari dotted here and there for authenticity’s sake - and it is on this sound scholarly basis (sarcasm) that well-educated, devout, orthodox Muslims are dismissed as Westernized/uninformed/deliberately evasive if they dare to break out of the mould that has been cast for them.
If you want to talk about Islam with Muslims, Stan, accept the following:
1.) You are not qualified to tell them what they believe or to categorise them;
2.) If you are going to ask questions, they should at least be honest and sincere. Your phrasing reveals that you aren’t interested in getting an answer - you’re just interested in making people say what you want them to say.
3.) ‘Westernized’ and ‘Christianized’ are not synonymous, even though you treat them as such. Christ did not come out of the West, and the West is not God’s best gift to mankind.
4.) Your status as a Westerner and a Christian does not make you all-knowing.
Salaams to everyone.
“Stan”
So as to not be repetitive please see my response above to your questions as you originally presented them.
Let’s not continue to hijack the topic from this post. The topic of this post was the mis-coined “honor killings” (I find nothing honorable about killing women).
These are cultral traits that extend beyond religon and across hemispheres. The Quran as well as as the expressed example of Prophet (saws) proves the utter rejection of brutality towards women and girls.
The Prophet (saws) clearly indicated that Muslims would commit all types of sins yet the beauty of Islam is that we don’t have to rely of western concepts of whats wrong or correct. This is because Allah has revealed what is correct.
It has been only in the last 100 years or so that women have had sulfrage and property rights in the west, whereas in Islam Allah gave as exemplified by the Prophet (saws) women the right to acknowlege (or not) the leader selection independent of their husband as well as inheritence and property rights.
Having read both the article and Umm Zaid’s post I agree with some of her sentiments though not all.
Most of what I’ve from Umm Zaid appears to be the frustration at the harm being done to women and children not at the behest of Islam but with overtures to “Arab honor” so only the ignorant could blame Islam when the scriptures already forbid it.
Unfortunately, the lack of knowledge is causing histrical Muslim peoples to regress. Simply because some is Muslim and speaks Arabic doesn’t make them knowledgeable of Islam.
I personally know of many efforts in the Muslim communities to stamp out spousal abuse and to otherwise promote healthy marriages. Just because Imams are not calling press confrences, doesn’t mean work isn’t being done.
At the risk of appearing to support “honor killings”, the original story was biased by trying to paint the relationship as innocent puppy love, the bottom line is that GIs are prept not to get invovled with Muslim women, but they go over there trying to get their mack on, in every country where they enter a conflict western soldiers leave behind children so I can understand the father anger, yet this does not justify his response nor is his response supported Islamically.
Silly me, what ever was I thinking. There are no dangerous Muslims at all. It really is all about peace and the Jewish controlled media really is making all of this up. There are no Saudi radical scholars that speak about non-Muslims as if they are animals.
9/11 was really done by a bunch of Jews with remote control airplanes. The Islamic websites such as islam-qa.com are not really run by Muslims but really also just a Jewish conspiracy
How silly of me to be afraid. I understand now. There are no Muslim terrorists at all. How could I have ever been so silly? Anyone afraid of terror from any Muslim is an Islamophobe.
All Muslims are peaceful people who mean us no harm whatsoever and anyone who expresses fear of any of them is a racist
A group of Methodists attacked the Danish Embassy in Pakistan
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7430721.stm
Those darn Methodists!
LOL @ Stan
I suppose those videos of people with their heads being cut off are also figments of our western imagination as well.
With people like Vicky denying the threat, we may as well surrender now and let them start chopping our heads off. In that mindset, Muslims are allowed to do whatever they like and disbelievers have no rights at all
Stan seems to have the answer. All Muslims should give up Islam.
Next day, there will be peace in the Middle East, and all terrorists will disappear forever, because no group of humans will ever use any excuse ever again to attack another group.
LOL LOL Hi Stan
Stop pouting and pleaaassee slooowly step away from the keyboard LOL
So let me get this straight after your charade of pretending to ask bait questions fail, now you resort to weak sarcasm
LOL
I bet you’re great to play sports with, soon as you start losing you take your ball home LOL
First I am not at war with you so I have no need to be dishonest nor do you have a reason to be afraid. It’s truly funny to watch a person goes from ridiculous to whimsical in a few short posts LOL
Stan you are too much LOL. So because white Christians kill under the guise of democracy and secularism instead of Christianity this is better?
I felt Vicky pointed out some good points……
We must keep in mind - When participating in blogs- everyone is coming from different backgrounds with different perceptions. But let’s not waste our time with arguing with the ignorant - you will find it’s just a waste of time. Stay focused….
@ Al-aswad
The point is that you all expect me to believe that there are no dangerous Muslims killing in the name of islam and that this is all some Jewish plot against you? We have no reason to be afriad of people that cut off heads on TV? We have no reason to fear people that are SWORN to wipe us out? You are trying to get me to believe that this is all a fignment of my imagination and this is why I find this discourse to be dishonest. You will not even admit that
Stan,
Yes, there are some radical Muslims that believe in the mandate that you speak of, but the vast majority of Muslims reject this mandate and do not accept the hadith you quoted as it contradicts the Qur’an’s mandate of “no compulsion in religion”. The hadith do not outwiehg the Qur’an. I am not going try to make you think that there are no radical Muslims that would like to force everyone to convert of kill them. Yes, such muslims do exist and yes they use old and outdated interpretations of Islam for completely different times. So in essence, you are trying to make us out to be Muslims of 1000 years ago when times were different
@ “Faisal Usmani”
I see you … Are you Muslim? Let’s be honest. Now play fair.
Let’s see what should the response be … oh yeah
“brother Islam is for all times etc. etc. blah blah blah”
@ everyone
please raise your hand if you’re tried of these characters hijacking posts
waits for the response from the “radical muslim” character to show up refute the “Faisal” “progressive non-traditional” character, so that the “Stan” character can say “see told you” they are All bent on world domination and the ones that won’t admit it are practicing taqiya LOL man you guys slay me they’re just trying to create “noise” to people off topic
oh yeah remember this post is still about how a Muslimah Umm Zaid is encouraging us to speak out agianst all forms of oppression and abuse of All women and children the was ALL (not just Muslims)
“With people like Vicky denying the threat…”
What threat did I deny?
I lived on a heavily guarded compound and had bomb threats made against my school. I grew up in that climate. I know that there is a terrorist threat, because I’ve experienced it in a way that you have not.
However, I also know that the soldiers standing outside to guard us against any terrorist attack were Saudis. Muslims. I know that that the first people who were on the scene to offer practical help and support to the families who suffered in the Riyadh bombings were Saudis. Muslims. Not the American armchair activists who sit at their computers and discuss the ‘Muslim menace’ from there. What have you ever done, any of you, to reduce the level of the threat or to make this world a better place?
muslims are the scum of the earth. There, for them ,is no heaven no allah waiting to shake their dirty blood soaked hands, I want them all to die slowly with the same fear that those in the twin towers ect experienced that day when these manics decided to take their lives. They come over here take our housing our benefits then dare to march on the streets wishing ill on us. and a government to scared to do anything and the PC brigade who have nothing better to do that encourage these vile disgusting pigs of a people . i wil be voting the BNP as will all my friends and family
Well, why don’t you characters, put on a US Military uniform and defend your country? Come join us over 30k Active Duty Muslims and thousands currently working for the US Government in DC.
You are a bunch of cowards who couldn’t fight your way out of a wet-paper bag.
Muslims like me in the Marine Corps will still fight to protect your rights to be a scared little idiot. I will remember that the next time I attend Jummah in the Pentagon or on Marine Corps Base Quantico at the Islamic Center!
People, Stan is a TROLL. Why are you feeding him? Just because he hasn’t come out screaming and swearing from the first comment like normal trolls do? Don’t feed the trolls!
We have got to stop letting these lunatics take over the comments on every single Muslim blog.
Religion isn’t the problem, it’s the “religious” fools that give God a bad name.No religion is immune from them.
I’ll never forget my first impressions of the Muslim faith. I just found myself wondering how could media give an inaccurate depiction of the religion? The Islam that I learned about doesn’t condone evil whatsoever. Just thinking about the words ” In the name of Allah, beneficient, the merciful” among other things that I’ve learned from the imam and the Surah’s he read from the Qur’an doesn’t imply such craziness. I have yet to read anything about Islam and terrorists(which I know that I will never see because god wrote no such crap.)
As a teen, I was denied my right to religion( as I call it, Islam being it) because of what my folks thought was the ” right” religion and thinking that I was some undecided teen who would do a fly-by with it. Maybe I was, but how are people going to learn the truth about something when they have not experienced it themsleves. At least I can say that.
For years, I just heard people tell me all of the bad stuff about the Muslim faith. If they weren’t telling me about it, TV was doing the job for me. Reality is that there are some rotten/good people in every religion,but at the end my biggest concern is not about religion, it’s about doing right with god. God isn’t going to judge man because of whose religion people are in, but about his committment and obedience to him. This what I’ve learned in the Christian( when I was one) and Muslim faith.Where does the terrorism chapter come in is beyond me.
AsSalaamu Alaikum,
This is such a scary topic. It reminds me of hadith in which the Prophet said and I’m paraphrasing, some of his(S.A.W) people would try to return back to the period of ignorance before islam before the day of judgement.
Has anyone ever heard this hadith?
These honor killings and even suicide bombings. Ask yourself. Would the Prophet (S.A.W) do such things?
We have Shariah. We have a criterion. We have the example of the Prophet (S.A.W) so we can’t say it’s just a theory, it’s been applied. So lets get real.
The Prophets were oppressed,and so were their followers.
We are Muslims. We should act as muslims, in all cases.
The Prophet (S.A.W.) has already prophecied the Oppression.
Patience, Prayer, and Perserverance.
On the Day of Judgement, Allah will not ask you of what another man did but what you did.
So important. And the fact is, we have the Reminder. Do not follow the Predecessors of Islam and throw the book behind your back or sell it for a paltry price. Do not forget.
May Allah guided us onto the straight path inshaAllah.
AsSalaamu Alaikum