W Deen Mohammed 1933-2008
Posted on September 9th, 2008 by Tariq Nelson
Imam W Deen Mohammed
Imam W Deen Mohammed passed away today. Details are still coming. My thoughts and prayers go out to his family and those who loved and respected him. He will be missed. May he rest in peace
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Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi rajiun. Allah (swt) grant him Paradise, insha’Allah.
Allah forgive W.D. Muhammad, raise his status among those who are rightly guided, grant him a successor among his descendants who remain. Forgive us and him, oh Lord of the universe and make his grave spacious and grant him light in it.
I’ll have more to say on his life and legacy, and how he touched the lives of so many American Muslims, as well as Muslims abroad. I just have to gather my thoughts….
inna lillahi wa inna liayhi raji’un
[...] Posted September 9, 2008 Filed under: Uncategorized | Tariq Nelson brings the sad news of W.D. Muhammad’s passing. He was one of American Islam’s most influential leaders and [...]
“From Allah we come and to Him is our return.”
On behalf of myself, the Sabree Group and the Islam in America Movement, I express my deepest condolences to the family of Imam W. Deen Mohammad; may Allah, Highly Glorified and Exalted is He, have Mercy upon him and place light and space in his grave. Ameen.
That family includes the thousands of Muslims that supported his work and were part of his association, as well as the countless number of people throughout the world that he has impacted with his interfaith work, insights and commentary. His influence was immeasurable.
Although I was a 10, soon to be 11 year old child in the then-Nation of Islam, when Imam Mohammed assumed the leadership upon the death of his father on February 25, 1975, it didn’t take me long to figure out that he was a pivotal figure who would be recorded as a “legend” on the Islamic landscape in America. My intent is to share some personal reflections on the man, the leader, whom I was honored to have several private audiences and conversations with him in 1999 and 2000, particularly.
For now, I need to collect my thoughts, offer dua’ for our brother and servant of Allah, and try to get details on his janazah so that I can prepare to be there, by Allah’s Permission.
Again, may Allah give Imam W. Deen Mohammed his greatest Mercy during this greatest Month of Mercy and Forgiveness.
Was salaam
Salaam alaikum,
Very sad news. May God grant him mercy and forgiveness, and strength to his family.
Here’s a bit more on the Imam’s life, from the Tribune:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-090908-mohammed-islam-obit,0,1523688.story
Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji’un. This man did a lot for Islam-may Allah forgive him and make his grave spacious. Ameen.
Two weeks after the death of his brother. Subhanallah.
Wow ! I’m quite shocked at this news. Nonetheless, I’m sorry to hear about his passing. This is so unexpected.
To me, he just seemed like one of those people who would never leave this world. For years, my mother( whose is secular) would tell stories about him, but I haven’t always know( at least 22 years ago) that he was Elijah Mohammed’s son. About a week ago, I visited one of his masjids, he was scheduled to be a guest during their one of their Eid( I think) celebrations, Unfortunately, that will never take place.
I remembered how my mother talked about him , but at the time I didn’t know his name and I had no idea( At least 22 years ago) that the same man behind those American Muslim Journals was his son. He will be solely missed. My condolences goes to his family.
The world will miss this quite giant. For Imam W. Deen Mohammed; from Allah we come, and to Allah we return. Truthful history will recount his tremendous positive impact on America and the world. He has been a quide and inspiration to me for over 30 years. I pray that Almighty Allah the Creator of Everything, will forgive him his sins and grant him paradise. I for one will re-double my efforts to see the success of his mission of truth, peace, justice and self-relaince as taught in the Holy Quran, a book of gudance for all people. May Allah continue to bless Imam Mohammed’s family, the members of his association, and all right-minded people throughout the United States and the world. Amin.
Subhan’Allah. He brought so many people into Islam. May Allah reward him for his efforts and forgive him of his sins. We have truly lost a great pioneer.
Inna lillahi wa inna liayhi raji
Though I did not grow up under the leadership of Imam W.D. Muhammad, people near and dear to my heart loved him. He is responsible for the largest conversion of people to Islam and provided the foundational base for the indigenous Muslim population. He devoted his life to teaching and empowering Muslims to read and think about the Quran and Allah for the sake of self. He also provided an indigenous model of building a Muslim community (Masjid, houses, businesses, etc) so that when he spoke about it, it had that much more impact. His guidance, leadership and presence will be missed. May Allah reward him continually for all t good that he has put into this world. Ameen.
I pray that Allah has mercy on Imam Mohammed. The Imam was a pioneer of Islam in America and a historic figure.
As-Salaamu `Alaykum,
As one of his students, I was in shock when I heard the news. I was actually in the company of Dr. Abd-Al Hakim Jackson and a few other leaders when I received word via text message. I just saw him a little over a week ago, and he was walking around briskly, looking in excellent health for his age.
La hawla wa la quwwata illa billah!
I have many thoughts about the Imam’s leadership, which I’ll be sharing on my blog during Ramadan, insha’ALLAH.
I would like to bring up now, however, his influence on Malcolm X (RH). I’ve read in one news story today stated that Malcolm X lead him towards orthodoxy, which is not really a correct narrative of history.
In Malcolm’s own autobiography, he stated that he would go to Wallace for advice of matters and that Wallace had the most spiritual insight out of the Muhammad children. While everyone else, including Malcolm X, was reading “Supreme Wisdom” and “Message to the Blackman”, Imam Mohammed was reading Qur’an in Arabic and studying the writings of Sayyid Abdul-`Ala Mawdudi (RH). Imam Mohammed has told the story on numerous occassions of his meeting Mawdudi on Mt. Arafat when he made hajj after being kicked out of the NOI for not accepted Fard as ALLAH in the person.
Anyway, Rep. Keith Ellison & I are scheduled to talk about the contributions of Imam WD Mohammed today on News & Notes on NPR - it starts at 12:30 PM Eastern Time, insha’ALLAH.
Wassalaam
May Allaah have Mercy on him…Aameen
Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi rajiun.
I too pray that Allah grants Imam W D Mohammed (ra) the highest rank in Paradise. In this very short time we have lost two truly great men in Imam Mohammed (ra) and Shaykh Hassan Cisse (ra) who’ve done much for the spead of Islam.
And while there will be much testimony in the coming days about Imam Mohammed’s strength, I will simply allow his own words speak as they express it far better than I ever could.
Keep in mind that these words were spoken his community at the time of his own father’s passing
“…and all of us are men and women of knowledge, and when the strong gush of wind coming from the forces of emotion, come against this house and blow, the windows stay intact, the shade doesn’t even wavier, the curtians at the window, though the window be up, won’t even be moved by the winds of emotion, simply because this house is built on strenght, divine strenght, this is a house formed by knowledge and men of knowledge just don’t fall down in the floor and wept and moan and cry like babies when the winds of emotion come”
February 26 1975
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Imam W.D. Mohammed
Audio on Imam Mohammed from NPR’s News & Notes: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=94471553
Thank you for your sharing your experiences DC Muslimah. Although, I’ve moved Masjid Muhammad will always be my home.
I
Yes…I was deeply saddened after it was confirmed that Imam Mohammed had returned to Allah( SWA) this morning. May Allah forgive him his faults, and grant him the Jannah. The blessing is that he died during the month of Ramadan. Allah (SWA) promises us the paradise in the event that we die during that month.
Hadith 31 - 123 Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “When the month of Ramadan starts, the gates of the heaven are opened and the gates of Hell are closed and the devils are chained.”
I pray Allah that when it is my turn, that He takes me during Ramadan. If not during Ramadan, I pray that he takes me during the Hajj, or while I’m performing Umrah.
Imam Mohammed did his job well in inspiring us with what Allah revealed to the Holy prophet Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. His works are renowned all over the world, and he will never be forgotten. It is because of Imam Mohammed’s insight that we learned to be tolerant of other religious communities, and to work together with them for the common good of all.
It is because of Imam W.D. Mohammed that so many new converts came into the religion of Islam.
In reflecting, I found it to be quite coincidental that the passing of Imam Mohammed comes right at the time when our community has gone full circle with the Ramadan cycle. Ironically, September 7, 1975 (33 yrs. ago/34 Ramadan fasts), was the date that we began our first authentic Ramadan fast. And just as we have now completed the Ramadan cycle full circle, so it is with Imam W.D. Mohammed’s mission.
However, his mission has not yet been completed. The first phase was just completed, and now we must prepare ourselves for the second phase in continuing to implement his work so that we can show our appreciation for our beloved Imam and the wonderful legacy that he has left us with.
Alhamdulillah…I feel quite honored to have served under such an humble, and illustrious leader.
@ Hajji Abu Bakr A. Madyun, who said “…revealed to the Holy prophet Muhammad…”
If it means anything to you, you can’t say that Allaah’s Messenger (salallaahu alayhi wa salam), and while I’m at it, Allaah’s Noble Book are “Holy”. ONLY Allaah is Holy (Al-Quddoos).
Too often, in our ignorance of Allaah’s Deen we belittle things, but with Allaah they are HUGE. Don
Br Daud it is laudable that you to want assist brothers and sisters by constantly correcting them, particularly as the Prophet (saws) has said that which means iblis has given up trying to mislead in the large matters so he will try us with the small.
I get it, but must you make a mountain of a mole hill at every turn? The brother didn’t say Nabi al-Quddus so why make it appear that way or assume so?
in english the words sacred and holy are interchangable, why not give the brother the benefit of the doubt and respect that he may not have meant al-Quddus? English and Arabic are not exact word for equilvents so why assume so?
Why would you even consider that someone would attribute one of Allah aza wa jal’s attributes to the Prophet (saws)?
He could have meant it like muqaddas or any other of multitudes of arabic words used to describe something worthy of sacredness, you know like the four months or someone spiritually distinguished , yet this doesn’t imply something worthy of worship nor is it attributing Allah’s attribute to a human.
So it’s not a matter of no one not pullin his coat, rather granting a brother the benefit of the doubt where is latitude to do so, not assuming worst understanding of shirk by a Muslim
As-salaamu `alaykum,
I do understand that many people are mourning the death of W.D. Mohammed. However people should evaluate what the man did objectively and from the point of view of Islam. Many people think that since he rejected the ridiculous notions of his father that he became an “Orthodox” Muslims. Nonetheless, W.D. continued to seriously misguide people–in a more subtle way.
It is a basic rule in Islam that if one belies what is in the Qur’an or what is well known and established in the Religion, then the person commits kufr (blasphemy). Among the kufri statements of W.D. that are well known to come from him are:
—the claim that the Muslim female can marry the kaafir male
—the denial of the miracles of Allah’s Prophets
—that the Jinn are merely allegorical entites (which belies a CHAPTER of the Qur’an)
—perhaps his most notorious blasphemy that he promoted was that Christians and Jews need not embrace Islam, for according to him, those who reject Prophet Muhammad will be safe in the Hereafter, which blatantly belies the Qur’an and the Prophet (cf, 3:19/3:85/48:13)—and his claim was said not in the context of the TRUE followers of Jesus and Moses in ancient times, but the mukallaf non-Muslims of this era.
WD was far from “Orthodox.” If people just think for a moment: this was a man who called his biological father–the well known minor dajjal of North America–by the epithet “Honorable.” There is no “honor” in blaspheming on Allah and calling the Creator of the Universe a human being. WD held people who followed the Sunnah in denigration and belittled traditional Islamic scholarship. WD did not follow any madhhab, but to the contrary, he was advocating a new madhhab, which, for the most part rejected the Hadith of the Prophet. His discussions on Doctrine are almost non-existent; although there is a statement of his in which he claims Allah picked up Adam and held Adam up to His (allegedly, Allah’s) nostrils. WD was from the sect of the “Qur’an-only” modernists/apologists movement. Many people are not familiar with the NUMEROUS/blasphemous deviations this man advocated. Muslims were simply relieved that he stopped following Elijah Muhammad’s teachings.
Allah knows if this man spread his misguidance and disbelief intentionally or not. (Although it seems the former to be the case, for more than one person approached him over the years and attempted to correct him.) One’s intention, however, does not make the haraam halaal. WD’s misguidance was/is profound and deep, and he corrupted and confused MANY people. May Allah grant guidance to his followers. The tragedy in this man’s death is that there is no sign that he repented, and that he sent an untold number of people to the grave believing in his kufr and deviance. May we all rectify ourselves now without delay before the Angel of Death seizes our souls.
May Allah guide us and enable us to stand up and defend Islam and grant us the good endings.
Swarth Moor
As you are obviously a descider of orthodox Islam. I have two questions. What consitutes gheeba and does part taking in it nullifies one’s fast?
Muslims who have written mean, nasty and very disrespectful things about Imam W.D. Mohammed should be ashame of themselves. If You think Imam W.D. Mohammed contributions isn’t worthy of your respect then”to you be your way” or visit a local church or a temple of Islam. or a local prison or take a look at what the streets are producing in our kids and some adults then get back to me. Many, if not most of his members came from these or similar areas of life. Today when you see these beautiful reverts or converts to Islam, they proclaim “There is no god, but Allah and Prophet Muhammad(pubh) is the last Prophet, They pray five times a day( in arabic),They give in Zakat, fast during the month of Ramadan, make Hajj, eat Halal, read the Quran (in arabic) Ju’maah Salat is held every friday, they celebrate the two Major Eids ,they greet all Muslims with the same or great greater greeting of As-Salaam Alakium, in many areas of the united States they have builded community life as Allah have asked of them , they are not racist people anymore, they dont smoke, drink alcohol, do illegal drugs, eat or sale anything Haram in there market places, they are Muslim Americans not American Muslims, meaning that Allah, his Prophet and this religion is first ,they follow leadership( very well) and they have a great love for humanity including those who are astray and is need of assistance, Thousands, if not millions people have heard the Quran and the words of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)for the first time because of his dawah either directly or indirectly, Through Allah’s Blessing thousands, if not millions are now Muslims. Imam Mohammed did not have to leave his home, his job in 1975 to tell the Nation of Islam they are not in accord with the Quran and the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).. He could have stayed at home and not do any dawah like most Muslims today. Instead he faced more than 600,000 followers of Elijah Muhammad and told them that Master Fard was not god. That comment alone would have brough down the wrath of that community on any other human being.. Because of that one single brave act, over two million African American Muslins now exist in the U.S. Can anyone tell me how Sunni African American Muslim before 1975.. Even Minister Farrkhan appear to be slowly moving his community away from Shirk to the Sunnah path. This Man did dawah (without complaining) until the day he died. Why dont we (ALL) asked question like, when is the last time I have brough someone to the Masjid because of my dawah? What have I done to change the killings, HIV, homelessness etc in my community? How many family members of mines have I introduced to Islam and how many have accepted it? What have “I” done for Islam lately. I wonder if Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was alive today could many present day Muslims really follow him. The message as well as the spirit of some Muslims on here is nothing short of ” Im better than he”. We all know who made that claim. We all should look into the mirror first ,before we begin to judge others. Prejuding is a very dangerious thing in Islam as well as other religions. I thank Allah I am already Muslim because i would not want this religion base on how i see many Muslims behave in the world today. May Allah bless us with the intellect as well as a heart for this deen.Amin
Abu Usamah,
Gheebah is to speak about a MUSLIM in his absence something that is true that he hates to be said about him. A person who rejects EXPLICIT verses of the Qur’an is NOT a Muslim. Furthermore, warning Muslims about those who teach deviance–much less disbelief–does not constitute gheebah. Furthermore, engaging in gheebah (which this is not) does not nullify the fast–but it does effect the reward of one’s fast; consequently the one who commits gheebah in Ramadan need not make that day of fasting up after the Eid.
The Islamic orthodoxy is known. Now the question is: were WD’s positions based upon the orthodox positions of Islamic scholarship? The answer is, “No.” WD’s teachings were not REMOTELY related to Islamic orthodoxy. To the contrary he belittled traditional Islamic scholarship. Brother Abu Usamah, the issue quite simple: did WD (knowingly) teach things and deem legitimate that oppose the Qur’an and the Prophet. There is NO DOUBT that he did. These matters have been widely documented from him. This results in belying the Religion and belying the Religion constitutes disbelief. Consequently, it is VERY DANGEROUS to be asking Allah to forgive someone who died on disbelief (for doing so and knowing the person died on disbelief is disbelief in itself).
With Allah is the success.
Saeed,
It seems you are confusing matters here: no one is saying that WD Mohammed did not do things to assist people. The issue here is that he taught DISBELIEF while masquerading as a Muslim. He had numerous BLATANT BLASPHEMIES that he and his followers promoted. I listed SOME of them above. No Muslim can doubt that such convictions are themselves disbelief. Now if you doubt me and think that he did not say such things that’s another matter (you can merely investigate to see what i said is true); however, we have to agree–as Muslims–that the one who denies what Allah revealed is no more a Muslim than Elijah Poole was a Muslim.
@ Tariq
You deleted part of my post, and all I did was say WD was a fitnah for the Ummah.
@ Swarth Moor
Thank You!!!!!!!!! May Allaah put your jihaad in defense of Islaam on your scale of good, and bless you and your family with Al Firdaws…Aameen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@ Abu Usamah al-Aswad and everyone else greatly exaggerating WD’s status. A reminder for ALL OF US…
2:169 [Shait
Not asking for mercy for the Innovator
Shaykh Ali ibn Hasan Al Halabi was asked the following
Question: We have received a number of questions inquiring about the permissibility of asking Allah’s forgiveness and mercy for the people of bid’ah (innovators) .
Answer: All praise is due to Allah and peace and blessings be upon the Messenger his family, companions and followers.
Who is Al Mubtadi’ (innovator)?
The Mubtadi’ is the one who innovates or practices invented matters (in terms of the religion) which were not advocated neither by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) nor by his companions. Then he adheres to these innovations as away of religion (manhaj).Allah the Exalted described this behavior in the Qur’an as thulm (wrong doing):
But those who wronged changed the word from that which had been told to them for another, so We sent upon the wrong-doers Rijzan (a punishment) from the heaven because of their rebelling against All
May Allah have mercy on brother Imam’s soul.
Salaam
I knew it only was a matter of time before the Trolls reveal themselves cloaking themselves in the garb of self righteousness . What took you so long. You claim the mantle of people of knowledge when in truth you are the worst people under the skys of heaven. Your purpose here is only to slander and defame a man’s good name and his noble deeds. Fortunately for all us you are niether Allah nor his Messenger as you display a pitiful lack of love for both. You and your ilk suffer from severe mental pathologies; your baseless argument are full of lies and logical fallicies. I advise all well grounded participants to totally ignore the rants of these deviants and focus on the enormous great work that Imam Warithudeen Mohammed performed on this earth. Since you claim such moral superiority why don’t you visit on of our masajid and make you baseless claims there in front of the believers if you dare. Of course you won’t because that requires bravery and conviction which niether you nor your ilk posesses. You rather be a coward like the Shaiteen and whisper on the internet blogosphere where you can hide and be free to spread your poisonous lies.
Blakoak77,
You state….”your baseless argument are full of lies and logical fallicies”….could you please elaborate on these lies and logical fallicies.
Also.
You state..”you display a pitiful lack of love for both”…. This statement of yours has me scratching my head in confusion!! From what I have just read the brothers you are alluding to are merely weighing W.D’s statements by the scales of the Quran and sunnah. How do you percieve that to be showing a “pitiful lack of love for Allah and his rasool?
Umm Adam,
As someone who distinguishes herself as “Salafee” how is it that you have such concern over someone who made numerous statements of kufr. Im sure your attitude is not born from some tribal, nationalistic or racial loyalty so please elaborate. Do you know something the rest of us dont??
@ Blakoak777
“Since you claim such moral superiority why don
He will be missed. He taught many to choose the stratight path in life. Though I never met him, I only heard good things about him. He was a student of a relative of our family (Dr. Diab) who both had much love and respect for each other. God be with him and his family.
Blakoak,
I believe you were at least in part addressing what i said. I simply challenge to show where i said something that WD Mohammed didn’t say. Many people are rushing to defend this man and HAVE NO IDEA what the man actually taught. I listed above a partial list of the deviances that are well known to be ascribed to him. His followers don’t deny them, but to the contrary TAKE PRIDE in his deviations. Afterall, they considered him to the the “Renewer of the Century”. I would suggest to all those in doubt to INVESTIGATE what this man taught and not fall for the media hype that is attempting to portray the man as some kind of “Orthodox” Muslim.
Blakoak,
I did want to mention that the only reason i went into this issue is that if WD is seen as an “orthodox scholar” then his various deviant UNORTHODOX fatwas would be given legitimacy, such as, claiming the Muslimah can marry the kaafir male. This BLATANTLY belies the Qur’an (60:10), and the one who rejects the Qur’an CANNOT POSSIBLY be a Muslim.
Mr. Moor I have three questions for you. Why do you think Imam W.D. Mohammed said the things you accused him of saying? Have you ever had a private conversation with him about these and other concerns? Secondly, I get the impression that you think you could have done a better job at leading Elijah Muhammad community away from Shirk. If this is true , then let me inform you that there are four other Nations of Islam left. There is Minister Louis farrakhan, Nation of Islam, John Muhammad, Nation of Islam, Salis Muhammad , Nation of Islam, and lastly The United Nation of Islam and their leader name is none other than “God” or Allah in person. Choose one. Show me as well as the world that you have what it take to lead at least one of these organization to the Sunnah path. By the way, you don’t have over 600,000 plus members to fight with. Minister Farrkhan is the largest of the four with approximately 20,000. So your job is so much easier. So, brother take youtr Quran, Hadiths, books on Fiqh, Islamic law etc and go to the nearest temple and do dawah to the remaining followers of Elijah Muhammad. Good luck! Oh yeah, lastly, you may already know some 9000 Muslim came to his Janaza. These 9000 Muslims showed up in 24 hours and less on Thursday.
I
I have a question about WD. I watched a documentary on youtube where he said he used to read his father’s Qadiyyaani or Ahmadiyyah books, and it is reported that master fard was also a Qadiyyaani (probably where Elijah got his books from). It is well-known that the Qadiyyaani or Ahmadiyyah are kuffar. Did WD ever pronounce or clarify his separation against the beliefs of the Qadiyyaan/Ahmadiyyah?
Daud on a serious note, did Imam Mohammed owe you some money? I mean come on brother, you sound like you hate this man guts and every followers that is assoicated with him directly and indirectly. Qadiyaanni, Ahmadiyah! Give me break. Was that a serious question or you do just hate him so much you and dont care what you asked anymore? He also read the bible and Torah Daud, do you also believe he might have been a saved christain or a jew also? I tell you this in closing, Imam Mohammed said that he realized that some Muslims dislike him, but he was still willing to work with them, he didn’t mine if you disagreed with him, he would still work with you, he didnt mind if you NEVER followed him, he would still work with you ,but if believe he is not a Muslim, that is where we part, and so will I. This is my last comment to you, I cant take anything you say serious anymore.
You can dislike someone without being disrespectful toward them. Peace
Saeed,
I would say the reasons that WD said the things he said were–and i will give the best construction first:
1. HE WAS HORRENDOUSLY-HORRENDOUSLY ignorant of Islam!!! I think that is a fact that anyone who is familiar with traditional Islamic knowledge and his sayings would have to agree upon.
2. (Now this one is my opinion) he seemed to be EXTREMELY ARROGANT. Granted he spoke in a humble tone, but when people approached him about his NUMEROUS DEVIANCES, he would reject what the person said. And as you can see in his followers until today, his rejection of the truth usually led into an anti-Arab diatribe. (Just for the record, i am not a “blind follower of Arabs,” but the WD community’s hatred for Arabs even spilled over to the vast majority of the Companions.) If this man was sincere, he would have given careful consideration to the proofs that were presented against him, repented, and informed his followers of his kufri errors, but there is no apparent indication that he did. To the contrary he would brag that he wasn’t going to listen to what others said.
3. (Another opinion but it deserves investigation): he seems to hve been on someone’s payroll (hint-hint). Given that his deviances very often mirror the modernists-apologists of our times (like, Irshad Manji–who is defintiely on someone’s payroll) almost point by point, it seems that someone was feeding him ideas. Besides the most basic outward manifestation of the Shahadah, he and his followers ridiculed almost every part of the Religion. Having family members who were heavily invovled in the organization going all the way back to what Nation and what they called the “First Resurrection,” i am familiar with these people.
Although i am not very good with diplomacy, as you can see, and don’t have any desire to run an organization, what i would’ve done is sought qualified-traditionally learned people (presumably from outside the US given the time we are talking about) to teach me and my followers. I would have placed a great deal of emphasis on showing the soundness of the Islamic `Aqidah and demonstrated how Elijah Poole’s creed was incompatible with common sense AND that it blatantly contradicts the Qur’an. Once the matters of `Aqidah were straight, i would have had my followers learn in a traditional madhhab, as has been the case of the Muslims all over the earth thru the centuries. Apparently WD made no such effort, but instead wanted to deem himself qualified to start a new madhhab, of which, of course, he would be its leader.
Although i hear the same kind of argument even from the Nation of Islam defenders (that their followers were not ready yet for real Islam), one could have taught the CORRECT CREED and still addressed the problems confronting the African-American community. Following traditional scholarship does not preclude dealing with contemporary issues. But again, this makes me wonder all the more how “sincere” WD was (keep in mind that “sincerity” doesn’t make sinning halaal–it just indicates was the person willfully misguiding others or was he doing so merely in ignorance): WD largely sheltered his followers from other communities, for it seems that he did not want his followers to realize how “different” (i.e., deviant) they were from the Sunni Muslim immigrants coming into the country at the time (or even AA Sunnis). This was one of the reasons for the pervasive anti-Arab vitriol in their community. His father pulled the same ploy on his followers back in the day–again to insulate his people from traditional Islam.
Lastly regarding the number of people at the man’s “janazah” means nothing about the man’s misguidance. The “Pope” John Paul I AM SURE had more people at his funeral. What it sadly shows is the DAMAGE and DISSERVICE this man has done for so many people to think that a man so ignorant and deviant actually was a “Muslim” “hero” and “pioneer.” That’s like calling Irshad Manji a “Muslim” hero” and “pioneer,” for when all is said and done, they came from the same ideological basis. As other’s have noted here, no one is defending this man (WD) on the basis of the Qur’an or Sunnah–it is all about emotionalism (and i would dare say nationalism). The man was OBVIOUSLY ignorant and he CLEARLY deviated from the Qur’an and Sunnah. He was not what many people here think him to be. May Allah guide his followers, for they are among the living and still have the chance to repent.
And Allah knows best.
Swathmoor
Beautiful!
You let me just say that the two of you are worst type of human being on the face of this earth. Prophet Muhammed taught us that:
“do not speak ill of the dead because they are being questioned by their Lord.” You have absolutely have no love for Allah or His Messenger, both of you are so arrogant and bitter that you can’t see the good in anybody. This is the Blessed month of Ramadan where the gates of Heaven are wide open for any who seek Allah’s Mercy. Where all back-biting and slander must cease. Congratulations for the two of you for according to your endless rants of lies and slander against a truly honrerable and Allah fearing man,you have just blown your fasts and all the Blessings that go with it.
@ Blakoak
Subhanallah. You beat me to it. I was just thinking of that hadith.
Leave Imam Mohammed alone. Whatever his faults may have been, and assuredly we ALL have plenty of them, we ask that Allah overlook all of them as we hope He will do for each one of us.
Not to mention, thousands of individuals said shahada because of his efforts. Whatever other gripe one may have with him, you can’t deny this fact. If any of us has similar deeds to our credit (which we don’t, clearly) then maybe they are in a position to talk. Otherwise, get busy, because the brother has outpaced you. Al hamdulillah. No one on this board is going to be questioned about Imam Mohammed, we are going to be questioned about ourselves.
May Allah forgive him and us. May the remainder of this Ramadan rain on our hearts and cause them to grow sweet fruit. May He remove the bitterness from our souls. Ameen.
And let me say one last thing. All of your lies and ennuindos and hatred for Imam Warithdeen Muhammed will not change one iota of my deep and profounding admiration, love and respect that I have for the brother. I shall pray that Allah The Forgiving, The Most Gracious and Most Merciful, The Knower of All that is unseen in the hearts of humans Shower him with Love and Mercy on the Day of Resurrection. As for the two hatemongerering trolls I see your type in my office from time to time. You see I’m a clinical psycologist and where I work I see your type of arrogant demeanor masking for vacant esteem all the time. You two have have some serious social pathologies whose roots can be traced back to our slave experience. Both of you need to seek help.
@ Blackoak777
A clinical psychologist, huh? Well, your diagnosis is grossly incorrect.
@ Blackoak777
A clinical psychologist, huh? Well, your diagnosis is grossly incorrect. I have no esteem problems, nor do I let things that happened hundreds of years ago i.e. slavery affect me today. i am not one of those who go around looking for someone to blame things on.
You call us liars, but you haven’t brought one proof to substantiate your bogus claim. I can’t help it if you hate to submit to the Book and the Sunnah.
Blakoak,
Can we establish a basic rule in the Islamic `Aqidah: the one who rejects what Allah revealed cannot possibly be a Muslim. It’s an oxymoron to call a person a “Muslim” when he doesn’t accept the Qur’an. That’s like someone claiming to be a “Muslim atheist.”
Now the Qur’an says: “The only religion acepted by Allah is Islam.” (3:19)
and:
“Whoever elects for himself a religion other than Islam, it will be REJECTED by Allah and he will be among the losers in the Hereafter.” (3:85)
Furthermore the Qur’an says:
“Whoever does not believe in Allah AND HIS MESSENGER, then he is a disbeliever condemned to Hell.” (Al-Fath, 13)
And to make it even more clear (for the WDers like to equivocate about who is a “Believer”), the Prophet said:
“Any Jew or Christian who hears about me [i.e., the Prophet] and my Message but does not believe, then he will be condemned to Hell.”
And to add to that, Abu Ja`far At-Tahawi said at the end of his `Aqidah (which has been a standard text for Creed for more than a millenium):
“The Religion of Allah on Earth and in the Heavens is one; it is the Religion of Islam.”
WD said otherwise, and deemed that those who die as mukallaf (legally accountable) non-Muslims will be saved in the Hereafter. So in essence, he claimed that those who belie Allah (a`udhu billah) and the Prophet and the Qur’an likewise (a`udhu billah) will be saved–in spite of the fact that Allah revealed that such people will be punished FOREVER in the Hereafter. It MAKES NO SENSE TO THE MIND OF A MUSLIM to deem such a person an “Imam” or “scholar” or “leader” of Islam when the man’s claims unabashedly oppose what Allah revealed.
My sincere advice here is for people to stop evaluating this matter emotionally. Judge by what Allah revealed for us to judge by and not cultural or racial chauvinism. Now if you are doubting what i am saying–that is, doubting that WD made such claims–i simply invite you to investigate what this man said and taught. You will find i have not lied on the man, but have simply informed people about his numerous deviances that are well known amongst his people–and they take pride in them.
With Allah is the succes.
Umm Pookie,
There are some basic rules in Islam. Among them is that the person who rejects what is commonly known and well established in the Religion cannot be a Muslim. We know that WD did this, and no one–to my knowledge (and certainly not here)–has demonstrated that he at some point recanted his deviances.
Now another basic rule in the Religion is that we do not ask Allah to forgive the kaafir when it is known that Allah revealed that He does not forgive the one who dies in disbelief (4:18/3:116). We don’t ask Allah to make halaal what we know He revealed as haraam for that would cause the person him/herself to fall into kufr.
Now regarding WD giving people their Shahadahs–and we assume that they had the proper understanding of the Shahadah and its basic implications (like believing in what Allah revealed), and not WD’s own (mis)understanding–i’d say that is a GREAT THING. On the other hand, ask youself HOW MANY PEOPLE DID THIS MAN WD SEND TO HELLFIRE WITH HIS NUMEROUS KUFRI TEACHINGS? He did some good… and, however, he was the cause (apparently) for thousands to die in the worst type of deviation.
The fruit, in this case, did not fall far from the tree. WD, like his father (and i don’t know if WD ever outright said that his fathers teachings were not merely a little misguided, but constituted disbelief) misguided HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people. And the fact that we are even having this discussion indicates how deep WD’s poison has seeped into the American Muslim community. WD has confused MANY people’s minds (as is evident here) regarding some of the most fundamental matters of Islam (like, it being an obligation to believe in the Qur’an). This is why i felt compelled to draw to people’s minds the deviations of this man, and for people not to get wrapped up in the emotional hype and start praising a person who OBVIOUSLY was at odds with what Allah revealed.
With Allah is the success.
First of all Imam Mohammed NEVER EVER SAID WHAT YOU ALLEGES. That is the very crux of your discussion. Your analysis is based on LIES AND ENNUINDOS. Thus your position is moot. Further simply because you repeat a lie over and over again doesn’t make it true regardless. Further I Have investigated those claims and have found them to be PATENTLY FALSE. Your rantings are similar to the karawij during the time of Imam Ali (RA) and the Yahood. Excessive argumentation and hair splitting. This is my last post on this discussion. As I wrote in and earlier you living in Philly since you have such an obsessive compulsive proclivity on this subject matter bordering on a narcissistic pathology disorder, go to one of the Philly Masajid that are affilliated with IWDM and bring your argument to them. I seriously doubt that you will because that will take some courage. As For Now KHALAS.
The last time I went into a WD masjid , Masjidullaah, they had pictures of human beings hanging on the wall (WD, his Mushrik/dajjal father, Fard–ad dajjal, Noble Drew Ali–the Mushrik, and others). The Sahaabah (radiyyallaahu anhum) did not go into buildings–let alone the House of Allaah–with pictures in them. If I followed that established SUNNAH, most of WD followers would think I was an extremist.
Swartmoor
There are also basic rules in Islam about making takfir and speaking ill of the dead. There are rules about leaving the reckoning to Allah. There are rules about leaving that which does not concern you. Do we disregard the parts of the sunnah which require us to bite our tongues? Do we ignore the commandments which require us to have maturity? Why are we ignoring the SAHIH hadith that was posted about not speaking ill of the dead?
Imam Mohammed has gone on to meet his Lord. Allah will deal with him, as He surely will deal with all of us. Do you think that Allah will deal unjustly with anyone? I, for one do not. Let Him mind His affairs and let us mind ours. In other words, remember that on That Day you won’t even be concerned with your children or parents. Worry about your own status–rectify your own station. You can’t do anything about Imam Mohammed–save yourself and your own family from hell-fire if you can. You are not going to be worrying about Imam Mohammed’s status when you are naked and barefoot before His Throne. He will be taken to account by Allah as will we. Allah sees and knows all. Why are we so reluctant to leave people’s destiny where it belongs? None of us has any power to place a speck of dust in hell fire or jannah, so why obsess over this man’s fate? That is for Allah alone to decide. Do you wish to vie with Him for mastery over the fate of creation?
If this is how you wish to spend your Ramadan, that is your choice. But please do not be surprised that the rest of us aren’t interested in getting in the cesspool with you.
Blakoak,
WD’s claim that Christians and Jews will go to Paradise is a WELL KNOWN DEVIANCE of his followers–that they DO NOT deny!!! To the contrary, they brag and deem those who say that Islam is required to be saved in the Hereafter are actually the deviants and “extremists”.
I am not hairsplitting. I am simply showing that a person who intentionally rejects what is well-known in the Religion is not a Muslim. And i am worried about the many people who–out of ignorance–may actually think that this person was some kind of great “Muslim” leader.
With Allah is the success.
Pookie,
The Sunnah also says: “Until when will you be silent about the deviant? Mention what is in him so the people will be warned.”
The Sunnah is to order al-ma`ruf and forbid al-munkar. So part of being concerned about my condition is to be concerned about the condition of others. Did not the Prophet say:
“No one’s Islam is perfected until he wishes for his Brother what he wishes for himself?”
We have enough apologist-deviants floating around and confusing people. I love the Muslims, and i don’t want us to be twisted up by ignoramuses who masquerade as Muslim “scholars”. WDM’s methodology is in essence no difference than Irshad Manji. M-A-A-A-A-Y-BE they might disagree over some of their “finer ” points, like whether or not homosexuality is halaal, but they would essentially agree:
—if you don’t like a Qur’anic verse or if it is not in compliance with whatever is trendy that day in the world of secular humanism, well, you just make up your own interpretation
—Hadith??? I don’t think that Irshad accepts them at all; i think WDM’s people whittled the Hadith down to the 40 of An-Nawawiyy
—Classical Islamic scholarship? I know the WDMers will laugh in your face for suggesting such a thing and then say: “We don’t need to be followin’ no Ay-Rabs ’round here.”
In summary, the deviance of WMD was more dangerous than even that of his father’s, for only the most hardcore Nation-Nut would defend Elijah Poole, and most of the people who call themselves Sunnis would immediately see that Elijah Poole was not a Muslim. The case of the son, however, is different. It is evident that he’s confused and conned many people into thinking that he was some kind of Orthodox (i.e., Sunni) Muslim, when that DEFINITELY could not be the case.
THE 411 on the WMD: WDM
From: Challenges That Man Face Today (p. 35 In the section “A New school of Fiqh”):
“Now before i could see how to do it, God had blessed me with the spirit to know it would come. And i told you a long time ago that they had schools over there [in Dar-ul-Islam] and we are going to have another school. We are going to have another school over here in time. We are going to have a school here in the new world. They will have to add another Imam. And if you put me down for Hanafi, Shafi’i, Hambali or Maliki, then you are a fool…. But you who have followed me to this day are true believers.” (On page 38, it goes on to talk about the “Madhhab” of WDM.)
Equivocation for WDM’s Dajjal Biological Father
He says:
Elijah Muhammd never gave us the FOI, MGT, or University of Islam. The Honorable [sic] Elijah Muhammad never us Yakub’s history. He never told us the white man’s a devil. The Honorable [sic] Elijah Muhammad never said the black man is God. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad never told us Fard Muhammad was God. Fard himself said it all. He told the Honorable [sic] Elijah Muhammad that.” (p. 87 WDM Speaks from Harlem (vol.1))
Fard disappeared circa 1934… so… who other than Elijah Poole propagated the teachings of Fard Muhammad for the next forty years? And who was calling himself the Messenger of Allah other than Elijah Poole? WDM, like his father, is just playing Bataniyyah wordgames here.
From the same book, page 2, WDM says:
“Any Muslim who calls a Christian ‘kafir’. Does not understand the term ‘kafir’. No Christian is a kafir simply because he is a Christian.”
A kaafir is anyone who is not a Muslim. The only difference is whether or not that kaafir is Religiously accountable, such as, being of legal maturity, sane, and having received the basic Message of Islam (i.e., the shahadah in a language they understand). Obviously if this person doesn’t even know the distinction between Imaan and kufr, then he can’t be a Muslim “scholar” capable of Ijtihaad and starting a new Madhhaab.
Similarly WDM says in “The Schemes of Satan”:
“Allah, The Merciful G-d Who loves His human creation, the human beings that He created.” (p. 17)
That’s strange. Very strange. The Qur’an says that Allah is going to fill Hell up with disbelieving humans and jinn. If Allah “loved” humanity, then why will so many be in Hell? Furthermore the Qur’an says: “The lowest thing on the face of the earth is the disbeliever.” And the Qur’an says: “Certainly, Allah does NOT LOVE the kaafireen.” (Aal `Imran 3: 32)
Similarly WDM says in the “Message from Harlem”:
“I have the greatest respect for Christianity and even Catholicism.” (p. 17-18)
Muslims can be well mannered with their Christian neighbors, but never has any Muslim scholar said he has “the greatest respect for kufr”… but then he does not consider those who openly reject Prophet Muhammad to be kaafir.
The above quotes are from MY X-files (of deviant literature). Now there are several sites out there that have listed the numerous other deviations of WDM. Many of those sayings are widely confirmed to them and others would not surprise me if he said them. Nonetheless, i stuck with what i have in my possession to demonstrate the kinds of things WDM taught and apparently never repented for.
May Allah guide us and have mercy upon us.
More on WDM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOoKKh46rLw
At the start of the video, this person ways: “This is the best time ever.” That’s peculiar. Very peculiar. The Prophet (sallallhu `alayhi wa sallam) said:
“The best of eras is MY era, and then the one that succeeds it and then the one that follows.”
Furthermore, the Prophet said:
“Each generation would get progressively worse [until the coming of the Mahdi and return of Jesus].”
How can a Muslim think that this is the “best of times” when Muslims do not even have a government that is remotely close to being governed by Islam? We are weak and under the boot of Western imperialism and usurious overlords all over the Earth. The Prophet said a time will come–which is this time–in which the enemies of Islam would dominate us. The Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) did not call that the “best of times”. WD sounds like some sort of New World Order Globalists, which fits PERFECTLY with his “modernist” Irshadian apologist rhetoric that he advocated for 30 years.
Brother Daud, As-salaamu `alaykum,
You seem to have forgotten to mention that not only do they have a romantic attachment to Eli Poole and Fard Muhammad with their shrines and things, but they also have the jazz jams and the folks shaking their derriers on the dance floor in those WDM centers.
In the final assessment, WDM was the head of a negro-nationalist cult. Like his father, they adopted some Islamic titles and terms, but when you investigate beyond the surface, you see that these people were faaaaaaaar from the teachings of the Prophet.
I know. I snatched my wife from their community. She said Masjid Muhammad, in Philly, had a “white party” i.e. a caberet with a DJ and a flippin’ live band. She said the Muslims were in there kicking it in the masjid–or, should I say the “cultural center” because that’s what they started calling masaajid. The imam at the masjid, Sutraddeen once told a bunch of kuffar during a dinner that “Muslims were just good christians”. No doubt, WD did this to these people. Subhanallaah he could have nullified his Islaam with that evil statement.
If his followers learned basic aqeedah from authentic sources, they would hate this man for the sake of Allaah. He could be solely responsible for leading THOUSANDS of people from our tribe into the Hell-Fire.
O my brothers and sisters, judge this man based on what is clear from Allaah’s Book and the Prophetic Sunnah; not any emotional or nostalgic
@ Blakoak77
I pretty much agree that swarthmoor, Daud, Aboo Abdillaah H, each suffer from severe mental “self-esteem” pathologies, in my visits to the prisons I’ve seen it before in guys who were probally terrors on the streets who go to prison and become clinggy. Then once they get out often they go right back to commiting crimes only against people who look like themselves or the weak in the community.
The question is what are we going to do about it, that is to say how we going to reach out to our youth to teach them tawhid, while also teaching them how to have true productive Islamic lives while involving them in leadership? I say leadership because responsibility strenghtens esteem, and prevents them from looking else where for validation and esteem.
The youth have to be given an outlet to voice displeasure (especially when they have questions) or this pathology results.
@swarth moor you wrote “Abu Usamah al-Aswad and everyone else greatly exaggerating WD
Daud and moor -
nothing presented against the Imam is worth refuting. You are extremist muslims who consider Islam of the 7th century to be pure. Your fundamentalist leanings represent the worst of Salafi tradition.
Your knowledge of pre-Islamic Arabia is limited. The lack of cultural context, purpose and rationale implicit in the Holy Quran is quite obvious.
This is why many are calling for a re-contextualization of Islam in the form of positive reformation or Renaissance. We cannot go back to the 7th century.
I know it is your job to defame moderate muslims but this presentation will not work.
You have not presented a case of what is an “authentic source.” Do you not know how many jurist interpretations, schools of thought that differ with each other.
@Daud,
Please explain the following:
swarth moor wrote “did WD (knowingly) teach things and deem legitimate that oppose the Qur
@swarthmoor, Daud, Aboo Abdillaah H,
It is you all who have allowed your “EMOTIONS” to delude you. Do I have issues with somethings Imam WD taught? yes, but this post was neither the time nor place to discuss whatever short comings in Imam WD Mohammed teachings. You all are lost.
Please stop “posing” or as we used to say in “the D” perpetratin’ merely cuting and pasting is no subsitution for true study neither is trying to pass someone’s erudition off as your own. You guys are like political talking heads who are given talking points which they go around regurgitating like robots.
If you all truly wanted for your brother what you what for yourself then you would invite to correction with the best of speech, rather than attacking emotionally and writing about someone’s shortcomings like scorned high schoolers scrawling someone’s phone number on the bathroom wall.
Why else would you come where Muslims are offering condolences and du’a for a fellow Muslim to start this foolishness, do you have no shame? Is this what you are being taught?
Perhaps if either of you had actually sat at the feet of a true muhaddith then you would have learned the hadith of mercy which is the time honored first hadith taught to true students of knowledge so as to remind them that they are to be merciful with their application of knowledge, just as the Prophet (saws) is a mercy to the worlds (note* this is not limited just to Muslims), I only say you haven’t learned it because I would hate to think that after having learned such an important sunnah, you would have thrown it behind your back.
Perhaps if you had sat at the foot of a scholar who spoke a langauge that you, yourself understood, you all would provide a better service to Islam.
I ask how are either of you providing a service to Islam or showing conduct befiting the excellent example (uswaa hasana) of the Prophet’s (saws) sunnah, when this is the level of adab you display.
@ Abu Usamah,
I think you have me confused with someone else saying you’re exagerating WD’s status. I don’t believe i responded to you directly (i may be wrong–please correct me if i did say such a thing). But the point remains: it is EVIDENT to anyone familiar with the strayings of the WDMers that they regard, as i’ve seen on some of the blogs recently that: “WD is the wisest man on the planet.” And i believe i saw another say he was the renewer of the century. The man, NO DOUBT, was ignorant and he called many people to kufr. May Allah guide us and protect us from that.
@Ron
Your argument sounds like Irshad Manji–you know the lesbian modernist who deems homosexuality halaal. Please show me one thing that i said that is “extreme”–according to the Laws of Allah. Please don’t tell me that i am “extreme” because i think that fornication, sodomy, or same sex “marriages” are haraam. The standard for Muslims is Islam and not whatever happens to be trendy today in secular humanism.
Ron i do hope you understand that the modernist argument has NO WEIGHT. Lay people devoid on knowledge are not qualified to pass Religious judgments, and that is exactly what the folks over at the Rand think tank (see Benard’s “Democratic Partners in Islam) are trying to promote. By ALL STANDARDS we have to admit that WD was ignorant of the Religion and was not qualified to make Ijtihad. Afterall, on what basis was he going to make ijtihad when he rejected the vast corpus of Hadith?
@swarthmoor
this is my error is that you did not write it was “Daud” who made the charge against me, my apologies
Swarthmoor didn’t make takfir of WD because he can’t, because he not a scholar; so he’s not qualified to make takfir on anyone. The issue of takfir is governed by the Ayah,
4:115 And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers’ way. We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell - what an evil destination.
The key here is the part of the Ayah that says, “…after the right path has been made clear to him…”. That indicates that making takfir is the exclusive province of scholars, they are the ones who “makes things clear”, not the common Muslim.
The second issue is “follows other than the believers way”, which means the person has to be advised by a scholar, and then he/she rejects the advice. After that, the scholar can make takfir. The scholars don’t get off on making takfir of people despite the kufr and shirk they commit, in fact they are VERY reluctant to do it because they fear Allaah more than anyone, which is what Allaah said in His Blessed Book.
Some deserving people have takfir’s declared on them, like Ghulaam Ahmed, who began the Ahmadiyyah movement in India. Others, like Sayyed Qutb do not have takfirs on their heads, although they deserved it. In Qutb’s case, the scholars did not get a chance to establish the proofs against him to see if he would reject them.
Whether a scholar makes takfir of someone or not, is actually a secondary matter because they still have to face Allaah with their kufr and shirk. WD is standing accountable, right now, for his calamitous statements against Allaah, against His Messenger (salallaahu alayhi wa salam) against His Deen–from which appears he never repented. I asked Allaah to have mercy on him because I’m truly afraid for him. Masha’allaah, I have love for the Muslims. Without doubt, WD and all the rest of the shayateen who call to misguidance will get what he deserved.
WD was a HUGE fitnah on the Muslims in America, and he is responsible for misguiding thousands of Muslims, who could be thrown in Hell because they followed him. May Allaah forgive those who followed his misguidance because they probably didn’t know any better. Allaah is Most Merciful.
@Daud
You wrote
@ Daud
You are missing the point. Can a person be a Muslim and say that he rejects the Qur’an? Can a person be a Muslim while asking Allah to make halaal what he (the person) already knows to be haraam? How can one ask Allah to forgive someone who died in kufr to be forgiven, when Allah promised that such a person will not be forgiven?
The only issue here is whether or not this man repented before he died. There is no sign that he did, so we judge by what is apparent, and we warn against what his followers still advocate. This is a simple and balanced position.
I have warned people elsewhere against WDM and his followers over the years. I really was hoping that this man’s fitnah would pass in silence; however, when we see people posing as Sunni Muslims asking for forgiveness and praising a man who openly berated the Sunnah, then it made me realize how much this man infected the minds and hearts of the people. Perhaps many people don’t know what this man taught. I initially figured when the evidences were presented about this man, reasonable people would retract their statements and realize that this man did tremendous harm to this Ummah–as we see here people arguing over something that is indisputable by the Sacred Law. It is deviants and ignoramuses, and not those who invite to good and forbid evil who are dividing this Nation.
When people were only offering condolences I remained silent. When people started praising him, and his “accomplishments” then it became an obligation to counter it.
Correction:
@Daud should be @ Usamah in my last post. Sorry.
@ Swarthmoor
I agree with you completely, there’s no argument between us–the truth stands clear from falsehood. I feel just personally feel sorry for him because of what he’s facing right now. It does not change the fact that he was a deviant, who beautified kufr and shirk, and and has left in his wake a large cohort of Muslims in America who are completely ignorant of Islaam, reject Ayaat from the Book of Allaah, reject authentic ahadith, and reject classical Islaamic scholarship.
@ Usamah,
For the record, i didn’t cut and paste anything in this thread. I went into WDM’s books and typed in the quotes. That aside, i could have been more tactful in drawing people’s attention to the strayings of WDM; good manners are important, and i need to work on myself in that regard. Thanks for the advice.
@ Swarthmoor
Me too. However with some people you can take the haqq and put it on trays of gold and silver, adorn it with beautiful flowers and the finest fragrance; and people will still reject it because it’s the haqq. When the haqq comes, that what it does–it separates the truth from falsehood, which is why Allaah named the Qur’an the Furqaan. An example,
27:45 And indeed We sent to Tham
As-Salaamu ‘Alaikum,
People can be blinded by love and devotion (as well as hatred) for sure, and those who loved WD Muhammad are now in the throes of emotional pain due to the death of their beloved.
Analysis takes an objective look at the facts and weighing stated beliefs and actions against the authentic teachings of Islam. PEOPLE MAY KNOW FOR A FACT the truth of many of the incorrect statements of the man (i.e. former followers) that others who are not aware of would deny or dismiss as lies and distortion, and going into it at the time of death will likely not be heard by those you are trying to help ’see the light’. A little mercy for the living is something we can affect, while the dead are beyond us and in the Hands of their Rabb Who is not unjust to anyone.
It seems often the tendency for brothers to seize an opportunity to pounce at sensitive times or in a manner that would likely not be affective or at all accepted kindly or with an open mind (like at the time of death and mourning or by putting out deliberately nasty titles against the man to hand to his followers!).
Sober analysis and introspection by devoted followers and admirers or acceptance of criticism is certainly less likely to happen now, if ever. Instead, such blatant critique, expose or refutation at this time was almost bound to be met with what you have read already - blunt rejection and an increase of rancor and resentment or feeling disrespected feeding what is already being complained about. Namely, rejection of issues related to Islamic ‘aqeedah and authentic sunnah. Such an approach possibly further closes people off from looking at things other than defensively or with utter disdain which was not the stated intention of those who took it. Nevertheless, it seems an obvious and basic perception, and may Allah grant us wisdom to know when things are best to be said and best to be left alone. May cooler heads prevail, ameen.
Assalamu alaikum, I don’t know much about W.D. Muhammad, so I don’t feel I can comment on whether or not he was “deviant” or not, and unfortunately, I don’t have the time nor the inclination at this point to research/investigate to see whether or not his alleged (and I used that because I, myself, don’t know for sure) deviant statements were indeed said by him or not, and whether or not he recanted them or not.
But just assuming that everything said about him is true, I’m not sure that this is an appropriate time to come out swinging with paragraphs of refutation against him. Especially when people who knew him well are mourning him and griveing his loss. From what I know, which surely isn’t much, when giving nasiha, one must try to fint out wheter giving such advice is going to lead to good or not. Unfortunately, it seems that the good you’re trying to do, in guiding people to the truth, as it were, may have the opposite affect and push people who are hurting right now and need time to grieve.
Perhaps a better aproach would have been to wait a while until people’s emotions had subsided a bit, then perhaps put together a dosier, via blog perhaps, of the “anti-Islamic” statements that he supposedly made, and then left it to the reader to judge.
Because it seems right now that people’s emotions are too raw for them to perhaps take in or accept what you’re trying to tell them.
Abu Abdillah and Ginny are correct. When they were offering condolences I remained silent. It wasn’t until they started giving him unwarranted praise that I began to oppose them. You should see the stuff they’ve written here (and elsewhere),
“…will recount his tremendous positive impact on America and the world…”
“…The Imam was a pioneer of Islam in America and a historic figure…”
“…Imam W.D. Mohammed
I agree with Daud on this point. I have to admit that i underestimated the degree of loyalty this man was given. I figured that a lot of people were simply ignorant of what WDM said, so you bring the proofs, and folks (all except the most devoted followers) would realize that this man is not what the media or his devoted followers claimed him to be. That would be that and the end of the story.
I do have a question. Is this really the woman he called his wife:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGMg2h-m86E
I saw somewhere where it said she is a teenager. Believe me i don’t have a problem with it, but it does seem contrary to many of the positions he took.
Never mind… my question has been answered.
@swarthmoor
Now you bring the Imam’s wife in your tirade!?! When does your “haya” kick in? MashaAllah is this how you are taught? Who is your teacher? Seriously, who is teaching you this stuff?
In fact swarthmoor, Daud and Abu Abdillah, can each of you please name your teacher, I’m not talking a paltalk audio, I want to know the actual person who teaches you and speaks a language you understand.
At this point I don’t think you either has a teacher, I believe you are your own teachers and the products of audio tapes. If not then produce your ijaza from any minhaj for this type of discourse.
Not that I have a problem with independent study, but since you all pretend like you have this great respect for traditional knowlege, then surely you should be able to provide examples from your own learning.
Isnad is what distinguishes true Islamic learning.
And for the record, though, it does not matter in the least, I am not a student of Imam WD nor was I ever a student, so this accusation against me of being emotional is laughfulble.
Yes, I have studied Arabic from students of his as well as studied with students under his leadership. And I can say for a fact that the accusations you are making against them as a whole are simply not true. So when it’s said or implied that all the people under his leadership are misguided those are out right lies that must be refuted as I know these people personally.
I’m glad they have not refuted you, because inshaAllah the angels are fighting for them. And actually as I’ve re-read these posts I seriously doubt you are even sincere anymore.
The reason being that, for you all to have studied Imam WD sayings as much as you claim or to even have observed the community then there is no way you could have intelligently taught you were going guide the people away by attacking their leader.
No you are not that stupid, rather you simply have a bone to pick. If you have a better methodology, minhaj or whatever why not simply present it. Why do you have to tear down or rend the flesh of another leader?
If you offer something better the people will follow, the Sahaba followed the Prophet (saws) because they knew him to be just and honest before he even proclaimed Islam. Then he simply invited them to a better way of life within their own culture. What way of life are YOU offering and WHO has taught it to you?
At this point I may be doing no more than feeding the trolls, yet I will say this.
For decades some Blackamerican followers of almost every other Islamic ideology have attempted to woo followers of Imam WD by attacking him, yet who has he attacked?
Institutions under his leadership are still the most stable and giving among Blackamerican lead Masajid and Islamic schools. And this fact makes him a target, even in his passing during Ramadan his flesh isn’t safe.
Only the most obstinate and ignorant can deny he has “done much for the spead of Islam” here in America. How is that statement excessive?
Who in your lofty oppinion has done the most to spread Islam in this country? Under whose direction has more shahadas been given than under Imam WD?
And yes I have no problems with asking Allah to forgive him of his sins, I did not have to carry the responsibility that he bore. I am not the Imam of a community, I will not be brought in chains before my Lord and asked about that responsibility. Allahu Alim
It is funny to me how brothers from other communities who are always talking about Imam WD teachings, yet have no problem with “actively” seeking to marry women from his community or how brothers who are not even attached to any community at all are always are sniffing around to marry women from his community and I am speaking on what I’ve seen here in my city, but I’m sure it happens else where.
Inclosing this is my parting challenge to swarthmoor, Daud and Abu Abdillah, please present a link to your and/or your teacher’s presentation of Islam. What have YOU produced? I’m not talking about in a financial or an institutional sense I already know the answer to that, I’m speaking of an intellectual sense, with an intellectual lineage that goes back to scholars.
my prediction more attacks, cut-n-paste or “crickets”
I have come to the conclusion that it is not about the rejection of Islam by WD, but more, the idea that Daud and friends have been rejected outright by most people on this blog.
All of the argumentation, the willingness to lie on groups of people without even approaching them, is so easy for them to do. Context means nothing to them, they just read stuff and quote it later. Kind of like politicians do.
Roving the internet to see what people are saying about Imam WD until they find something to troll about.
It’s like this, I believe that Jerry Fallwell led people astray. I did not rove the internet after his death to find blogs about it so that I could troll. I didn’t quote Imam Malik to people who don’t even acknowledge him, or understand what he meant.
Daud and friends troll, quote their scholars, and think it’s all good. Many people on this blog do not subscribe to the Salafi philosophy, or other extreme views. Those comment from those who are Salafi, often conduct themselves with adab, with the exception of Daud and friends.
In anger, because of they are being ignored or rejected, they exhaust themselves by quoting hadiths and quran, as if any of us know them as scholars, and are going to just accept what they say. They could be two Christian rednecks from Appalachia for all we know…we don’t know, I can’t bear witness to their Islamc(and I know the qualification to do such).
My eyes begin to cross whenever I read their comments. One of the trolls actually thinks that he knows what is happening to Imam Warith Deen right now, which is completely and utterly insane.
“WD is standing accountable, right now, for his calamitous statements against Allaah, against His Messenger (salallaahu alayhi wa salam) against His Deen
@Abu Usamah al-Aswad
Subhannallah brother you took the words right out of my mouth. Over the past decades of observing this fitna phenomena, much of this vitrolic attacks can be traced at the very root to a mental and social pathology that can be traced to our conditioning as slaves on the slave plantation. Mordern scholors of mental health sciences have defined this pathology as Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome. A book was published recently by Dr. Joy Leary addressing that very subject. In fact she coined said phrase. Simply put is the the effect that white supremacy and racism had and continues to have on African American and the adaptive behaviors they developed, both positive and negative, that allowed them to survive and often even thrive. Dr. Leary concludes by reevaluating those adaptive behaviors that have been passed down through generations and where appropriate, she explores replacing behaviors which are today maladaptive with ones that will promote, ensure and sustain the healing and advancement of African American culture.
We as African Americans have developed a pathological self loathing when it comes to dealing with each other. It is a pathology that has been passed down from generation to generation and still persists with us to this very day because we have not addressed it in a consistant manner althouth many laudable attempts have been made to do so.
Until we address our mental and social diseases, no matter what “dress” we adorn ourselves with, it will be as if we put a clean suit over a body that has been wallowing in filth, mud, urine and feces. Our inner stench will reveal itself.
I have an even better question–who did WD ever sit with? Who did he learn his Islaam from? I hope he obtained more knowledge than the Ahmadiyyah books (and they are kuffar) he read in his kaffir father’s library. Who did he sit with; and name his men.
According to Daud if we are not sitting under the feet of some scholar in Saudi, then we are all deaf, dumb and blind. He gave his loyalty and obedience to them in return he gained only self hatred. To the likes of Daud no black man from their own community can be a scholar, even if they complete and return from their education in Saudi Arabia, Daud will be waiting to declare takfir on them. Some people are affected by slave mentality, there is no self pride.
Did I miss something, did Daud say he was African American or is this just an assumption that only AA Muslims with self hatred issues would speak like this?
@Taichibob, on September 13th, 2008 at 3:08 am Said:
Umm Adam,
As someone who distinguishes herself as
Abu Usaamah,
I am a student of traditional knowledge. I’ve taken several text in traditional `Aqidah (most of `Aqidah An-Nasafi (with its sharh) and At-Tahawi with extensive sharh/isnaad). I follow Shafi`i school in fiqh (Abu Shuja`ah). I am not self-taught; page flippin’ isn’t the way to go; i started off that way, but that AIN’T NO WAY TO LEARN.
I’ve been involved in da`wah for a lot of years, so i’ve been around some. I’ve lectured around. And have given LOT OF THOUGHT about the need for American Muslims/African-Americans need to learn the traditional Islamic sciences–and how to make those sciences relevant to the circumstances of Muslims in the West. So i am not unsympathetic to the challenges of AA Muslims and the establishment of an American Muslim identity and culture.
Now i will be quick to admit that i COMPLETELY made the wrong assessment here, and i already said that. I THOUGHT by now folks were pretty well aware of WDM. I THOUGHT that about the only people who follow the man or think highly of him were his followers going back to no later than the mid-80’s and perhaps a handful of their children (many of the children, of course drifted away from the organization).
I THOUGHT that the people praising the WDM were doing so simply because they had only heard one side of the story about WDM–namely from his followers or the mainstream media (MSM). What i had in mind is like what happens when some immigrant Muslims praise Louis Farrakhan. They do so in ignorance (just listening to his political/social rhetoric), and then when you share with them what Farrakhan believes, they go into shock for a moment and then IMMEDIATELY change their opinion of him.
I THOUGHT that if i present some of the WDM’s statements that people would back off and investigate–not defend–WDM. I had NO IDEA that so many people felt emotionally attached to him. Like i said, i thought that the people who were praising him were merely repeating what they heard or saw others do.
In regards to the propagation of traditional Islamic sciences, without mentioning any names, there was one African-American leader who was one of the greatest obstacles to the spread of that knowledge in this country. He and followers sought to black nationalize Islam. And he belittled those who sought to learn in the traditional Islamic methodology. Now there is nothing wrong with understanding and contextualizing rulings of Fiqh in a cultural context, but you don’t dismiss–or dismantle–the Usul ud-Deen and alter basic aspects of the `Aqidah to accomodate a people who wish to follow their nafs or fit into mainstream America.
Given that i thought that most African-American Muslims (assuming them to be the majority of the contributors on this blog) by now have some background in the traditional sciences, they would assess matters according to the Shar` and not their feelings. I GOOFED in that regard, and my lack of wisdom and ill manners did not help.
Lastly, although i don’t consider this (my speaking out against certain persons) picking a bone, for i do that frequently not just with homegrown deviants but folks from overseas, as well, i did stop to reflect this morning in a conversation i had with another tradtionally trained Brother (who is also familiar with the person who will remain nameless) about one of my family members and the kind of damage that was done to her and her family because of the teachings of a certain person not to be named. Believe me it was tragic, but i don’t feel–at all–that is what motivated me to post what i did. I did so, for the sake of Allah, to order what is good and forbid what is wrong. I misread the sentiments of (many of) the readers here, and i took the wrong approach. As is said: “To err is human.” May Allah guide us and grant us hikmah.
With Allah is the success
@Blakoak,
I don’t want to argue anymore. I have spoke my peace. But i will say that your assessment is TOTALLY wrong. I used to be deeeeep into the whole black nationalist-Afrocentric thing with leanings towards Malachi York. His (York’s) stuff was a (just) little too far out for me, and at the time i was quite disturbed when i read York’s attacks on WDM in a book on the 5%ers that York had written.
I actually LONGED FOR A BLACK, in particular, African-American teacher. I wanted to find someone who could answer my questions about the Philosohpers, Mu`tazialh, Shi`ah, the Sufis, the Saudis (this was at the time of Gulf War I), the “Orthodox” Muslims (along with the “meditation/New Age stuff i was dabbling in and of course, my “black” questions”). From the books of the Orientalists i was reading at the time, i could see clearly that there were some MAJOR Doctrinal controversies that had been at hand over the centuries in the Muslim world. I wanted to know who was who and what was what. And i want to know WHO WAS RIGHT!!! I didn’t care about popularity contests; i cared–and still care–for the Truth. I wanted someone who would give me sound RATIONAL answers to my questions and not merely give me THEIR intepretation of Qur’an or Hadith.
I scoured the books of a man who will remain nameless, who was deemed profound and deeeeeep by his followers, for my answers pertaining to the details of the Islamic Creed and get CLARITY regarding these doctrinal controversies–i wanted to know who God was, for i was VEEEEERRRRY CONFUSED, and i knew i was confused. The literature (of unsaid person) i read almost glossed over the matters of `Aqidah altogether. I asked questions to those who had been in unsaid organization for YEARS, and they couldn’t answer my questions–they had no answers. And since they hadn’t (usually) read to many books on Doctrine (deviant or otherwise), they didn’t even consider these controversies very significant. They wanted to talk about “new ideas for business” or symbolical interpretation of the word “black” and “man”.
Said organization just couldn’t keep my attention. Later, i encountered folks who were talking traditional talk. I got many of my questions clarified within a few session with sound RATIONAL ANSWERS. After that, when i approached the followers of unsaid organization, very innocently and naively (nothing like the way i’ve behaved on this blog) and shared (SHARED–not boasting not being arrogant in any way), thinking that they would be as excited as i was to get clarity on basic Religious matters, the response was almost without exception: “We don’t need to be followin’ those Ay-Rabs,” or something to that effect. Immediately, one would sense a VITRIOL for the immigrant Muslims–and it was beyond just not liking the immigrants for their rude and not infrequently racist behavior. This was something more.
Anyway, to make a long story not longer, as i learned more (traditional knowledge), and encountered people who defected from the said organization, and i reflected upon experiences with members within my (extended) family when i was growing up, the easier it was to see that was being taught amongst them conflicted with what the Muslims have been learning of the traditional Islamic sciences all over the Muslim world from Singapore to Senegal. It took not much for me to realize that a lot of harm was being caused whether in ignorance or purposely, and i thought a WHOLE LOT MORE AA Muslims had had the same realization.
With Allah is the success.
@ swathmoor:
I want to leave this conversation with a lesson from The Messenger of Allah (SAW) : a profound statement that all of us (myself included) must reflect on deeply:
“A time is soon coming to mankind when their learned people will be the worst people under heaven
Kalmiaat,
Although i am confident Daud can defend his position on this point, i would like to contribute something and perhaps redirect the discussion. Problem number in the AAM (African-American Muslim) community is that we have this AFFIRMATIVE-ACTION notion of Islamic scholarship. What i mean by that is that because we are black (Americans) we somehow can come along and demand that Muslims water down 1,400 years of Islamic scholarship because we are too lazy and dysfunctional to do what it takes to become genuine Islamic scholars–or even high level students of Islamic knowledge. This, in addition to their racism/ethnocentricism, is why we are not taken seriously by the immigrant Muslims.
Let’s go back 20 years ago. Although i am not saying that this alone constitutes what makes one a Muslim scholar, but it’s a start to show what is required of real Islamic scholarship. How many of us had memorized 1/2 of the Qur’an–with PROPER TAJWEED–and not studied out of this country? How many of us had taken (and memorized) a basic text in Fard ul-`Ayn knowledge, like “Al-Maqasid” of An-Nawawiyy? How many of us had memorized an ELEMENTARY book in the very basics of Arabic grammar, like “Al-Ajrumiyyah”? How many of us had memorized, let’s say, 10,000 hadiths–make it 5,000 hadiths with their chains of transmission? For that matter, how many of us had memorized a basic book in Hadith sciences, like “Al-Bayquniyyah”? Did any of us have any real understanding of Arabic poetry, rhetoric, or philology at the time?
At best, we probably had a few of us who may have memorized a half a dozen Juz’, read some Qur’an with English (mis)transaltion and “commentary” (probably, back then either of Yusuf Ali or the Ahmadi, Muhammad Ali). And perhaps, he has some Hadith collections and was trying to interpret on his own with a Hans Wehr at his side. His Arabic beyond reading the letters in all likelihood came from an American university. If a person wanted to go beyond the level mentioned above he almost inevitably HAD TO GO OVERSEAS.
The fact of the matter is that i never heard (and i am a guy whose done a lot of reasearch in this area) of a single African-American family with a continuous chain of Islam (i’m not talking about family lore of great grandmamma not eating pork and praying to the east) in their family going back to Africa–much less a family that has produced a continuous chain of Islamic scholarship back to Africa. Slavery OBLITERATED OUR ISLAMIC HERITAGE AND SCHOLARSHIP. That’s just a fact of history. We have to get over that–or else stay stuck and remain the butt of everyone jokes and down the end of everyone’s noses.
You have to get the Knoweldge from those who have it. We have not (historically–as African-Americans) had it. The traditional scholars said that if the Knowledge is not available in your region, then you are OBLIGATED to travel to acquire it. Seeking the Knoweldge entails hardship, for it is a test of a person’s sincerity. If AA’s are SERIOUS about acquiring the Knowledge, they are going to have to put up with the racism, bigotry, and the cultural chasms they are going to find with other Muslims. However, if we are sincere and persistent, and produce genuine scholarship, then, in-sha’ Allah, we will finally get gain the self-respect we don’t have (collectively) and the respect of others. Nonetheless, we do ourselves a grave disservice to reject traditional scholarship and then ascribe the title “scholar” to people who don’t remotely deserve it. In doing so, we shame our selves and we shame the Deen in the eyes of those who know.
With Allah is the success.
First of all akhi, pride (kibr) is for Allaah only. The Messenger of Allaah (salallaahu alayhi wa salam) said that “whoever has even a mustard seed of pride will not enter Jennah, so I have no “pride”.
The leading scholars of this Ummah are in Saudi Arabia (and some in Yemen), even if that’s bitter for you to accept. Not all of them are Saudi. Some are African, Indian, Pakistani; Shaykh Albani (rahimahullaah) was European. There are groups of their students scattered throughout the Middle East and elsewhere, who like us, refer our affairs back to them.
Most of the people from our tribe don’t even complete the bachelors degree programs in the Saudi Universities (I have a lot of hope for the new generation, who tend to finish). If someone does graduate, that DOES NOT come close to qualifying him/her as a scholar. Most people realize this, but there are some who acquire this elementary level of knowledge and then think they’re independent of the scholars, and they ALL wind up making mistakes, and even going astray–people like Anwar Muhayymin, Abu Usamah Ad Dhahabi, Abu Muslimah.
The bottom line is that Islaam has been with in the black community in America for several decades, yet we still have not put in the work that other tribes have, who have were similarly blessed with Islam. Amazingly, we have the nerve to demand special status in the Ummah. Us black folks are the biggest smack talkers about our Islaam, yet we’re really very ignorant. We don’t know the Book of Allaah nor the Prophetic Sunnah; or how to apply it–which is why it’s so easy for us to throw it all over our shoulder and revert to the being “niggas” when things happen. We act like looking the part is sufficient. NO ONE from here has mastered the body of knowledge that scholars master. People who go to kuffar universities in the west, and complete Phd’s in Islaamic Studies, or Oriental Studies have only completed the same curricula that orientalists do, they are not even close to being scholars. Therefore, it is not permissible to try to pass them off as such.
So yes, if you want to learn your Deen, and how to implement it correctly, than go to Saudi Arabia, or Yemen.
Less we forget this post was originally, an acknowledgement of the passing of Imam WD inna lillahi wa inna liayhi raji
Abu Usamah,
Let’s stay focused here: the post isn’t about me, and i am not called a scholar or the “wisest man on the planet.” I am a LAY MUSLIM and a student of traditional knowledge. I HAVE NOT SAID ANYTHING HERE THAT CONTRADICTS THE POSITIONS OF AHL-US-SUNNAH. I have enough knowledge, praise Allah, to identify some of the statements that clearly contravene the Qur’an, Hadith, and Ijmaa`; whereas it seems some people are even confused about fundamental matters of Doctrine. You can criticize me for my approach, but i have not said anything that violates Islamic Law, and i have not advocated any deviant positions.
I simply listed some statements, which were actually generous quotes, for i didn’t want people to accuse me of pulling out of context, that indicated a person said very inappropriate things that would certainly not out of a learned Muslim’s mouth. Even if i were self-taught that would not give legitimacy to the statements of the person in question.
(Incidentally, my point of contention isn’t that said person didn’t have a teacher(s). My point of contention is that the person said things that BLATANTLY contradict the Qur’an. It is possible for a person to be traditionally taught and then stray from what he learned.)
Regarding Repentance
According to what you are saying, said person’s methodology has RADICALLY changed in the last few years. IF that was the case, that’s a GREAT THING!!! Nonetheless, what is (or has been) known of him and his followers is that regularly made fun of the Sunni Muslims (for practicing the Sunnah–and even their obligations). I already gave you the quote that the man advocated following a new American madhhab and considered A FOOL anyone who would think HE would follow a traditional madhhab. That is not a Sunni Islam. I also produced the quote that said person claimed that Christians aren’t kaafirs (which led to them claiming to give their daughters in marriage to Christian men). That ABSOLUTELY is not a sunni position.
Regarding the rejection of the Qur’an, simply see the above. Regarding the rejection of the Hadith, that had to be done, for the said person advocated an American patriotic accomodationist position–to the point of praising Muslim American soldiers who invade Muslim lands and assist in the killing of Muslims. In regards to being a “modernist,” he rejected the existence of the jinn; he considered those who believed in real interdimensional beings to be silly and superstitious. This was the position of the so-called Salafi-modernists of 100 years ago, such as, Jamal Afghani and Muhammad `Abduh (one or both of them, that is). I put up the video in which said person said that this is the BEST OF ERAS IN HUMAN HISTORY and was emphatic on that point. That’s the talk of the modernists, for Ahl-us-Sunnah says that the Prophet’s era is the best of eras. I have some of his papers somewhere around, and i could dig up more stuff, but that’s not how i want to spend my time. I simply invite people to go out and do some research on what said person taught over the years.
It is possible that said person sent his people to learn, while he still advocated anamolous positions. I don’t know where this man actually recanted his numersous strayings that i have already listed. If he did, that is great, and i was wrong. Nonetheless, we should ALL BE CLEAR that the statements that were made CLEARLY belied the Qur’an, and that MANY of his followers are still walking around holding those convictions.
Now, i have provided statements (that were not out of context) with their page numbers that clearly deviate from the Islamic orthodoxy. Now i ask of you, Abu Usamah, to show anywhere where he actually recanted those statements–and i am not talking about merely sending others to learn, but that he himself, who said those statements listed above are inappropriate and contradict what Muslims believe. I will fix myself if the person did leave what he was on. I hope to Allah the man changed before he died. If he did, and you can provide evidence that he did, then i will retract what i said. However, i will NOT cease to say that such statements (e.g., deeming mukallaf Christians to be saved in the Hereafter or able to marry Muslim women) are out right disbelief and whoever holds such convictions needs to reject them.
Lastly, if we can agree to some basic principles in Islamic Jurisprudence, such as, (intentionally) belying what is well-known and established in the Religion constitutes kufr, then we can move on to other matters, such as, ijaazah and taking knowledge by talaqi. But we first have to agree to elementary principles before we going into these other matters.
I know if we go into the issue of people’s teachers it is going to be controversial, and i don’t want to deal with a lot of folks sinking into ad hominem arguments (as you not so slyly are attempting to do with me), and it’s going to be controversial because we are then moving into the heart of the matter regarding who’s who and what’s what. But then, in-sha’ Allah, folks can gain the clarity that is so obviously needed (after seeing this thread) in the African-American Muslim community.
RE: “…I know for a fact that Imam WD has been instrumental in quite a few of his student studying overseas in Islamic institutions for example in the Abu Nour Institute headed by the Mufti of Syria Imam Ahmad Kuftaro. Where they were taught arabic, quran, hadith and fiqh. And many have comeback and excelled in other intellectual and community development areas. A few have become Imams and mutawwif who are coversant in arabic…”
Subhannallaah, he still was upon misguidance, and the students he sent to syria are misguided as well. My cousin went to the Noor Institute, during the same time that zaid shakir was there. He knows both zaid shakir and the brother that owns the shukr online clothing company, who were all there at the same time. Alhamdulullaah, once my cousin learned the truth, he rejected that baatil he learned from Noor Institute and now follows the Salafi Methodology. That school is a strainght-up sufi, deviate school.
@Daud
“strainght-up sufi, deviate school” and you don’t take from deviants right yada yadah
And once again show me one book of hadith or transmission of Qur’an that has reached you or your teacher that doesn’t have a sufi in the chain of transmission.
guys are pathetic you use the anonymity of the internet as the fig leaf to hide behind after you’ve “thrown rocks” your intectual cowardice is sicking, nevertheless after you go through the “self-righteous mental exhaustion” or as it is more commonly known “Salafi burnout” I wont hold these comments against you.
I’m not speaking about you as persons but rather directly to the conduct.
everyone else has the good sense to ignor guys, I actually hoped the Ramadan would have brought some level awareness of the shame of your actions.
The sadness for me is that there are many Blackamerican youth (ie younger than I, 38) for whom their identity issues and esteem issues were not address (some even former members of Imam community) now they have fallen pray to those who take advantage of their low-self-esteem.
@Blakoak777
So what is there to do? It would be great if all the Muslim clinical psychologists could come up with some sort of therapy for this clearly observable patteren psychosis.
Or better yet how about preventative esteem building programs to inoculate the children to make them immune from being taken advantage of in the first place?
Even if they are never allowed overseas, with all the oil wealth and scope of the internet there is no way to prevent them from coming with predatory ideologies so there has to be a way to make them immune
@ Abu Usamah
What would you say about a person who says: “We are Allah’s children?” You would agree that no scholar of doctrine has used such a phrase (even in a “figurative” sense), and i am confident you wouldn’t consider such a person who said such a Muslim “scholar, for that is simply NOT the talk of Ahl-us-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah. Drawing people’s attention to other’s ENORMOUS ERRORS in the matters of Creed, in particular, is not a bad thing. Yes, more tact could/should’ve been used, but the actual substance of the matter is not wrong.
There’s a lot of confusion out there, and that is largely because people are dealing with secondary and tertiary matters and not the core matters of Doctrine. Until this (`Aqidah) is addressed and fleshed out, you will find the mass of Muslims weak and negligent/ignorant in this matter, and others taking extreme positions to counter their negligence/ignorance. We need to be of the Middle Way and make a clear demarcation between Belief and blasphemy. Without this, we cannot make any progress.
IF you knew me, you would know that I don’t have low esteem at all. I come from a good family, although not Muslim, they are good people. Masha’allaah I study our Deen in order to implement it in every aspect of life, and Allaah has blessed me to acquire a secular higher education that aids me in my dunyah affairs.
I’m not a black nationalistic, apologist who goes around blaming stuff on “the man” nor historical events that happened hundreds of years ago i.e. slavery; because I KNOW that Allaah freed me from that stuff, and it has NOT EFFECT ON MY LIFE. Whatever Allaah decreed will be what I get.
We learn in Islaam that everything starts out being good, until the people change themselves to evil. Then Allaah changes their condition from good to evil (and vice-versa). Allaah NEVER, EVER allowed people who were upon good i.e. correct understanding of Tawheed (islaamic Monotheism) to be expelled from their lands and forced into slavery, except that they did something to earn the Wrath of Allaah. People allege that our forefathers were Muslim; I say “Allaahu A’alim” because it can’t really be proven, nor is it even relevant. If they were, they did something dreadfully wrong for that to happen to them.
“…The sadness for me is that there are many Blackamerican youth…”
I could care less about Black America’s youth. My concern is for the believers.
@ Abu Usamah
RE: “…And once again show me one book of hadith or transmission of Qur
The most corrupt and vile place on this earth is Saudia Arabia. Saudi Arabia might as well be Sodom at this point. All of these Saudi teachers have not been able to make a positive impact in their own country with their scholarship. I mean man come on.
We do not believe you. Tell me is it Wahhabis or Salafis? Kill the Shias, Amhadiyas, Druze, and Sufis.
Man I have seen this show too many times.
Question a whole ethnic group’s Islam. After you question their Islam get some people from that group to join your jihad. These people who join the jihad will be used against their own people. After they change their own people then have political, cultural, social, and mental supremacy over them.
This is an old strategy that has been employed from Algeria to Zambia. Its old and we are aware of it.
You can fool us once and maybe twice but the third time will not work.
This is using religion as a political tool.
Islam is personal and there is no need for interpreters and intermediaries. We have a direct line to Allah.
Ron,
Be careful of what you say, and don’t generalize. There’s A LOT of corruption in the Gulf, but also keep in mind that the best of places (Mecca and Medinah) are in Saudi Arabia. Furthermore the best of the creation is buried in Medinah.
Islam is not merely “personal”; it is also social. And in Islam, we have a method by which the Knoweldge is preserved and transmitted. The Qur’an tells:
“Ask the people of knowledge if you do not know.”
And:
“The ignorant are not to be equated with the learned.”
No one can “teach himself Islam.” Even the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) had a teacher in Angel Jibreel. The fact of the matter is that if African-Americans wish to master the various Religious Sciences, they are going to have to go to those people who themselves have done so, as Abu Usamah has said–and they are going to have to go to those people who have a living lineage by which the Scholarly tradition has been transmitted. This cannot be avoided.
In the meantime, for lay persons, there are matters that we can get straightened out right here, such as, what is the correct methodology for following the Prophet (even if one doesn’t master all the sciences in the Religion). But we have to ask the correct questions: who is who and what is what, and what is it that distinguishes the correct `Aqidah from the various invalid ones. Until the matter of Doctrine is sorted out, these discussions are not going to go anywhere, for people (in general) are not evaluating matters by a sound standard. We cannot afford to be intellectually lazy. We have to sincerely wish to get down to the bottom of matters: our salvation hinges on this.
With Allah is the success.
@Ron
Dear brother I beg you do not allow the cut and paste gurus to anger you nor cause you to insult scholars.
These internet faqihs do not represent true traditional knowledge of any sort, Salafi or otherwise, the proof is that anytime a pupil has been deemed worthy to carry knowledge the teacher endorses them put their stamp of approval on them. gives them permission
These guys have none this, this why they avoid the issue. Go anywhere they post and you will see they are devoid of any endorsement.
I know brothers who ascribe to the Salafi minhaj who simply do not behave in this fashion. So all of them are not this bad, while there remain points where we disagree they are not disagreable.
The ones posting here attempt to separate the belief, conduct and character of the Prophet (saws). The Prophet’s (saws) character was the QUR’AN how can they claim to have so much concern about adherance to the Qur’an yet unrepentantly fluant the good conduct of the Prophet (saws).
Their feigning outrage about shirk is phony and selective particullarly when it the comes Muslims and their interactions with non-Muslims. Some of them on the internet have become so transparent I think they need updated dossiers.
Yet despite it all we must still seek to tie our belief and actions to traditional scholars there’s simply no way to get around that, however the WHO you follow is the tricky part.
They want you to revile scholarship and try to paint you into a corner, I ask wasn’t one the reasons the Imam resigned was because the Imams under him were not actively seeking knowledge?
For the record I am NOT for of sending students overseas, but rather to bring the teachers here and I want to be very clear, that in doing everyone in the community should understand the chain of command, that is to say, that indigenous LEADERSHIP must remain INTACT. The ustaz\alim\teacher\scholar must be made to understand, and the community must be made to understand that the scholar is ONLY here to teach NOT take LEADERSHIP.
If we succeed in this then will gain the traditional knowledge (inshaAllah) without being beholden to anyone — Allahu Alim
Guys, I’ve been following this discussion for the last week or so since Tariq made his original post, and I think its time to lay the issue to rest.
While there may have been some possible question about W Deen Mohammad’s practices (I’m not saying there was, but some possible evidence is being presented) and I’m usually wary of personality-cult type actions (whether he himself intended it to be or not), however Daud and co did themselves no favours with their past behaviour.
After coming and picking on every narrow point on various posts in the past, how do you expect people to react when you cry wolf for the umpteenth time. You of the Salafi viewpoint have a very narrow view of the world (and an Arab nationalistic one at that), and want to berate others and call them Kuffar at every turn, even when there is room for maneuvering. If you choose to interpret it a certain way, go right ahead, but don’t assume it to be a universal. If you can’t even bring yourselves to listen to an alternate view, you’re worshipping your own interpretation method, which is probably some sort of shirk.
And please smile and use gentle words, why have I never seen a Salafi smile and use gentle persuasion when trying to bring a point across. You might actually get someone to listen to you for a change.
This discussion probably does need to be closed.
Like Abu Usamah, I know brothers with the Salafi leaning or understanding that don’t behave like some of the people that post their reviling comments on here.
Surely, I know that Shaykh bin Baz (RH), who actually was the one who recommend the name Warithuddeen to Imam Mohammed, didn’t act this way nor the Sec. General of the Muslim World League in Saudi Arabia.
Part of the problem about the internet vice face to face contact is that it’s harder to discern if a cat is majnoon or not. Even harder is if a cat is on a mission to cause fitnah and has been sent by an outside group or the “Alphabet Boys.”
When you see a person in the middle of fitnah constantly, that “negro” is either majnoon or has a dossier.
WALLAHU `Alim
?????? ??????? ???????? ???????? ?104:1? ??????? ?????? ?????? ??????????? ?104:2? ???????? ????? ??????? ?????????? ?104:3? ?????? ????????????? ??? ??????????? ?104:4? ????? ????????? ??? ??????????? ?104:5? ????? ??????? ???????????? ?104:6? ??????? ????????? ????? ????????????? ?104:7? ???????? ?????????? ?????????? ?104:8? ??? ?????? ??????????? ?104:9?
(104:1) Woe to every fault-finding backbiter;
(104:2) who amasses wealth and counts it over and again.
Surah 104. Al-Humazah
(104:3) He thinks that his wealth will immortalise him forever.
(104:4) Nay, he shall be thrown into the Crusher.
(104:5) And what do you know what the Crusher is?
(104:6) It is the Fire kindled by Allah,
(104:7) the Fire that shall rise to the hearts (of criminals).
(104:8) Verily it will close in upon them,
(104:9) in outstretched columns.
Surah 107. Al-Ma’un:
(107:1) Did you see him who gives the lie to the Reward and Punishment of the Hereafter?
(107:2) Such is the one who repulses the orphans away,
(107:3) and urges not the feeding of the needy.
(107:4) Woe, then, to those who pray,
(107:5) but are heedless in their Prayers,
(107:6) those who do good (in order) to be seen,
(107:7) and deny people the articles of common necessity.
it you lookup permissible backbiting by Imam Nawawi, and he scholars all agree with them, you will find 6 conditions. For the sake of brevity, I pasted numbers 4 and 5.
4. Warning and Advising the Muslims against Evil - There are several perspectives to this, of which one is: Declaring someone unreliable in the field of narrating hadeeth and giving testimony. This is permissible to do, according to the Ijmaa’ (consensus of the Muslim scholars). Rather, it becomes obligatory due to its necessity. Another case is when an individual desires to enter into a relationship with another person either through marriage, business, the consignment of his property, the consigning of something to him or any other of the daily affairs. It is obligatory on you to mention to that individual what you know about the person he wants to get involved with, with the intention of advising him.
5. When one openly exposes his acts of evil or his innovation - An example of this is when someone has openly exposed his consumption of alcohol, or his illegal confiscation of people
@ dawudwalid
Allaah said the best names are Abdur Rahman and Abdullaah. After that comes the various names of the Prophet (salallaahu alayhi wa salam) Muhammad, Mahmud, Ahmed, Mustafa; afterwhich comes the names of the Anbiyyah (alayhimus salaatu wa salaam), then the Sahaaba (radiyyallaahu anhum).
1. From what I know from the Ulemah is that the scholars dislike those “…”uddeen names because they are self tazkiyyahs, among other things, and their origin comes from the sufis. Many brothers who who took on these names changed them after they learned this. I need to see some proof– and remember, you made the claim so the burden of proof is on you as the claimant–that Shaykh Bin Baaz (rahimahullaah) gave WD that name.
2. For the sake of your argument, let’s say the shaykh did give him that name: what does that prove? That DOES NOT mean the shaykh approved WD’s da’wah. This mirrors the same type of reasoning the sufis use in their attempt claim that Ibn Taymiyyah (rahimahullaah) was a sufi because he’s buried in a “sufi” cemetary. If you read his books you’d see that no one was harder on the sufi’s than him
@Daud,
Salaamu’alaikum,
I felt like I was obligated to comment, as my name is Shamsuddin. This is the first time I have heard of names such as mine being wrong! All I can say is ‘wow’!
Look, the man is dead, he is in another plane of existence, called the Akhirah. Why not just leave him alone, and make your own positive contributions to the spread of Islam and the betterment of the Muslim community, rather than constantly attacking?
I did not not say the names were haram, I said the scholars don’t like them and recommend the people change them. Sometimes you will find these types of names ascribed to scholars, but it’s the people who gave scholars these names. They dislike them.
Well, I love my name, my parents gave it to me, and I’m not about to change it.
In any case, I hope that the message has been received, that constantly attacking the man, who has done more good than any of us, is not beneficial, and can actually incur Allah’s wrath, on the ones doing the attacking!
Inna Lilllahi wa Inna Ilayhi Raji’oon.
@ Abu Usamah,
For the record, exactly on what point have i said something that opposes traditional Islamic scholarship? (I am not talking about using poor judgment or failing to use the best of manners (which i regret)–i am talking about taking an anamolus position.) I was out of town for a few days, and this morning went back thru my posts, and i am looking for something that i said that was inaccurate. I don’t want that stain on my record. Perhaps one of the problems here, Abu Usamah, is that you are assuming me to be something that i am not and thinking i don’t have what i do. As Daud has said here, there is a distinction between backbiting/slander and warning people who openly promote deviance–much less beliefs that blatantly belie the Qur’an.
I do agree with your general point on ijaazah. But one should bear in mind that even a person with ijaazah can be misguided–as for example, one popular speaker (who i believe does have ijaazah)–who says apparently (barring some sort of video tampering) that we are the “children of Allah”–and given that it was said at least twice by him (in front of large audiences), it seems NOT to be a slip of the tongue (which would be one of the exceptions for kufr from the tongue). Sadly, people calling themselves Muslim have come to defend this person and this horrendous statement (the claiming we are children of Allah) based on the same rationale you are employing here: since the person is traditionally learned, the statement has subsequently somehow becomes valid.
Furthermore, in teaching others, it is not required to produce an ijaazah to a new Muslim to tell the person that Allah absolutely does not resemble (or need) the creations. The basis of the discussion should FIRST be on the matters of Belief–the traditional Sunni Creed which is intellectually irrefutable–and from that standpoint, the various deviant factions, whether they be the pseudo-sufis, anthropomorphists, apologists, pantheists, deniers of Destiny, ad nauseum, becomes IMMEDIATELY clear to any sincere and reasonable person (whether or not they have ijaazah). All of this boils down to whether we have trust in our common sense or not–and whether or not we are sincere in our pursuit of Truth.
With Allah is the success and guidance.
As Salaamu Alaikum:
“Oh you who believes in the last day let him speak good or keep silent”.
Brothers why are you going back and forth dignifying the comments of “Swarthmoor” and others who have nothng good to say? Evidently this is a person who just wants attention. Please, ignore him and perhaps he will go away. You can tell by the comments that he makes that he is not one who is in no way spreading this deen in a good manner.
“Let me just say that the two of you are worst type of human being on the face of this earth.
Prophet Muhammed taught us :
@ Abu Usamah al-Aswad -
Thanks. I appreciate your wisdom and approach. I remember when brother Tajuddin B. Shu’aib arrived in Los Angeles to teach us. The Imam requested this brother from Saudi.
I am sure you are familar with his book entitled, “The Prescribed Prayer Made Simple,” his work needs to be continued indeed.
Salaam
To Daud;
Thank you for the correction. I’m just hoping that you don’t think that I am going to waste my energy to accept or follow your advice just because you think that someone else is ignorant for not following your opinion. Opinions are like a you know what. Everybody’s got one. Sometimes it’s best to keep those to yourself since there is no Qur’an or hadith to back it up. Yes…I was ignorant to your thoughts until you revealed them. Now it’s up to you to clear up your own ignorance of thinking someone else is interested in your grandiose press release besides yourself…brotha.
I humbly submit to you the words of Muhammed the Prophet (PBUH) as a means of addressing some extremely critical issues that are present in this “jahil” state of existance that we find ourselves. Upon reading this sound advice from our Prophet (PBUH) let us EXHALE, PAUSE, AND DEEPLY REFLECT on what we are doing to ourselves and each other.
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Salim reported on the authority of his father that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: A Muslim is the brother of a fellow-Muslim. He should neither commit oppression upon him nor ruin him, and he who meets the need of a brother, Allah would meet his needs, and he who relieved a Muslim from hardship Allah would relieve him from the hardships to which he would be put on the Day of Resurrection, and he who did not expose (the follies of a Muslim) Allah would conceal his follies on the Day of Resurrection.
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Book 32, Number 6251:
Abu Huraira.reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do you know who is poor? They (the Companions of the Holy Prophet) said: A poor man amongst us is one who has neither dirham with him nor wealth. He (the Holy Prophet) said: The poor of my Umma would be he who would come on the Day of Resurrecton with prayers and fasts and Zakat but (he would find himself bankrupt on that day as he would have exhausted his funds of virtues) since he hurled abuses upon others, brought calumny against others and unlawfully consumed the wealth of others and shed the blood of others and beat others, and his virtues would be credited to the account of one (who suffered at his hand). And if his good deeds fall short to clear the account, then his sins would be entered in (his account) and he would be thrown in the Hell-Fire.
Thank you for taking the time to read this and reflect DEEPLY on these words.