Black Iraqis AFTER Obama’s Victory
Back during the campaign, I posted this story on how black Iraqis were praying for an Obama victory in the US in hopes that it would bring attention to and eventually improve their plight in Iraq. NPR now has a story that updates the situation after the Obama victory.
As a note, the alleged founder of Shiaism is disparagingly called “Ibn Sawda” (son of a black woman) by many Sunni historians. This shows the deep roots of this in places such as Basra.
The story is below. Be sure to listen to the audio
The election of Barack Obama to the U.S. presidency was celebrated with special fervor by Iraqis of African descent in the southern port city of Basra.
Although they have lived in Iraq for more than 1,000 years, the black Basrawis say they are still discriminated against because of the color of their skin, and they see Obama as a role model. Long relegated to menial jobs or work as musicians and dancers, some of them have recently formed a group to advance their civil rights.
Black people in Basra are most visible at joyous events. When there’s a big wedding, Basrawis call in drummers from the district of Zubair. The Basrawi bride and groom are welcomed in traditional fashion by a row of musicians in Arab dress, long dishdasha gowns and red-checkered head scarves. The drummers sway in unison to the rhythms they slap out on broad, tambourinelike drums — and drive up excitement as the newlyweds cross the threshold of a Basra hotel.
The drummers are black men, descendants of the people who came here from East Africa as sailors or slaves over the course of centuries. And while they are welcome fixtures at joyous events all over the city, they say they are not as welcome in Basra’s political, commercial or educational life.
Seen As Slaves
“People here see us as slaves,” says Jalal Diyaab, a 43-year-old civil rights activist. “They even call us abd, which means slave.”
‘Abd is EXACTLY the word used by Al-Zawahiri to describe blacks in his insane rant.
Diyaab is the general secretary of the Free Iraqi movement. He sits with more than a dozen other men in a narrow, high-ceilinged room in a mud-brick building in Zubair, talking about a history of slavery and oppression that he says dates back to at least the ninth century.
“Black people worked on the plantations around Basra, doing the hard labor, until there was a slave uprising in the mid-800s,” says Diyaab. Black people ruled Basra for about 15 years, until the caliph sent troops. Many of the black rebels were massacred, and others were sold to the Arab tribes.
Slavery was abolished here in the 19th century, but Diyaab says black people in modern-day Iraq still face discrimination.
“[Arabs] here still look at us as being incapable of making decisions or even governing our lives. People here are 95 percent illiterate. They have terrible living conditions and very few jobs,” he says.
Diyaab takes visitors across the street to a warren of mud-brick courtyards where dozens of people are packed into tiny rooms without running water or sewage. The narrow passageways reek of excrement. Many people sleep in the open yards when the weather is good, because there isn’t enough space in the rooms.
“These houses are like caves. This house? This is it,” says Diyaab, pointing at a single narrow room and the courtyard outside. He says 15 people, the family of a man called Abu Haidar, live here.
Lightning streaks the night sky as a thunderstorm rolls in from the Persian Gulf. Rain begins to speckle the hard-packed ground. The men gathered around say a heavy rain will flood these rooms ankle-deep with muck and sewage.
Diyaab says there are more than 2 million black people in Iraq. He says they want recognition as a minority, like the Christians, whose rights should be protected. He says his group’s demands have been ignored by the Iraqi government, but they have found an ally in a Sunni political party — the National Dialogue Front.
Awath al-Abdan is the head of that party in Basra, and he says he thinks black Iraqis have a strong case for getting their minority status recognized.
“We expect this cause to become a political reality soon because it just started to get publicity. We are working hard to get these people’s message heard,” he says.
Blacks face similar conditions in others countries throughout that region.
I will end by quoting S. Parvez Manzoor:
Our age possesses no will for self-criticism and reform. We show no courage to look at ourselves as we really are. In place of cherishing the living, we venerate corpses. Fleeing our present, we turn to the past not for reflection and review but for comfort and solace. Our dialogue with history is nothing but a deceptive game of self - indulgence . Self - aggrandizement not self-appraisal is our pastime. Our faith may not be an opiate, but we certainly are the most past-intoxicated people in the world
[...]
Our ills are our own, nobody else’s. That we accept tyranny and oppression is our suffering. That our children die of hunger is our responsibility. That our women die of childbearing and domestic violence is our disgrace. That our scholars prosper by ignorance is our shame. That our rulers rule by terror is our scourge. That our civilization is crumbling is our doing. By our sanctimony we fool no one but ourselves. We alone are the victims of our hypocrisy and we alone can rid ourselves of it. The sooner this curse comes to an end, the better it is for us and the world for whom we have become a liability and a burden.
To all the haters: Think about that before you fire off the hate emails.
Filed under: Race, The Culture of Denial and Pretense
That last quote from S. Pervez Mansoor was excellent and dead on!
This is an interesting story. I remember reading that article about the “Akhdam” before. I always had the impression that blacks would be at least a little better off in a place like Yemen that’s so culturally similar and tied to East Africa. Apparently not.
And the syncretism of the African tradition and Islam is very interesting. I had always wondered if something like that existed for Islam, as there’s Santeria and “Voodoo” for Catholicism.
Salaam,
Most folks know I study the African Diaspora in the Middle East. Even some prominent Western trained scholars of the Middle East fail to acknowledge that there are Black communities in in these societies. One time I got in an argument with Juan Cole about this, he argued along the lines of Bernard Lewis that all Blacks in Arab countries had been assimilated. Because I was just a peon, first year graduate student, my evidence of the Haratine in Morocco and Nubians in Egypt were easily dismissed. I think that narrative is interesting, but it is clear from the pictures that some of African migrations were fairly recent. Either that, or there was absolutely no intermarriage. Some of the Black Iraqis did look like typical Afro-Arabs, with traces of some infusion Arab blood. What makes it all interesting is the continual waves of Africans coming to Iraq from the 9th century to 20th, and their socially subordinate position. I’ve heard that the Haratine in Morocco have formed a political party in opposition to some of the Berber nationalist parties. They have campaigned with a platform highlighting some of the injustices they historically experienced under Berber customary law. Very few studies are done on racial discourse in politics in North Africa or the Middle East. So, this article is especially productive to think about.
Also, outside of the Ramadan series Antara, I got real tired of only seeing Black folks on Arab tv singing and dancing. Black Arabs were always the musicians and singers and, if they are lucky enough to play a part in classic Egyptian film, doormen. Another annoying stereotype is the Black magician, or voodoo-like character. Time and time again in Arab movies, books, even in Albert Memi (who was a Tunisian Jew) wrote about an all night musical seance with Black musicians. The biggest magic always comes from Africa. In some places, that is the only niche that African women in Diaspora can carve out for themselves. This is the case of the Hausa Bori women in Saudi Arabia. Still, the tropes of either musical African or the spirit possession African seem to prevail. It makes me wonder.
Hey Tariq,
Thank you Tariq for this post. My parents were once refugees in Iraq and they experienced alot of what you mention and worse, so much worse. Athough we experience racism in North American it does not even compare to the Middle-East (20 folds more), where it is also collectively acceptable.
Here is a recent post by Mona Eltahaway blog “The Arab World’s Dirty Secret : RACISM”, and the incident she mentions is one my father experienced in Iraq 20 years ago, where a man kept pointing at his nose. What really hurts is not the racism but the denial of it, the lack of shame.
“We show no courage to look at ourselves as we really are” because if we did our facade would break into a million pieces, and for many of us it’s too hard to pick up the pieces and rebuild.
http://www.monaeltahawy.com/blog/?p=93
@ Zenobia
Thanks for sharing the article by Mona Eltahawi. I recommend others to read it as well.
It took a lot of courage for her to write that article
[...] also did a program about black Iraqis in the aftermath of the election of Barack Obama [...]
As’salamu Aleikum,
Surely racism exists every place on this earth (have you been Okinawa, Japan? Not a nice place to be if you are Black) .
Reading this article from NPR (Neo-con Public Radio) resembles the time before the war in Afghanistan and how it was good to liberate the Afghan women (I am sure Mona Eltahawi wrote couple of articles on these pure women and who are suppressed by their evil evil evil brothers, husbands, uncles, fathers; well all men).
BTW, it’s so fascinating how NPR (Neo-con Public Radio) feels sympathy for Black Iraqis, when consider their open racists view on African Americans, and not let’s forget, their hatred against Black men (keep your purse tight, old lady):
Within the last two years, two black male hosts at NPR were fired for being “cocky” and replaced by black women, who, according to maverick black critic, Joyce, are less threatening to Neo-Liberals than black men. Apparently, NPR doesn’t want to offend its post race demographics and airs offensive productions like David Isay’s notorious “Ghetto 101,” which pushed the line that the problems of poor blacks are caused by their personal behavior. He put two black kids up to recording all of the ugly behavior they could locate in the Chicago projects, and when not finding some, encouraged them to make up some. So outraged were some black NPR staffers that they resigned. On Saturday, Jan.12, host Scott Simon’s guest was Sudhir Venkatesh a Chicago sociologist, who’s apparently decided that the ghetto.
Shouldn’t just be a profit center for white men. His book is A Rogue Sociologist Takes to the Streets. This creep gained the confidence of some gang leaders by deceiving them and, so like, David Isay’s “Ghetto 101,” he recorded the most disgusting aspects of life there for the entertainment of their NPR’s Brie and Chablis audience. His depiction of brutal activities of a black gang, the sort of portrait that Julius Streicher painted of German minorities, and the kind exhibited in David Simon’s moneymaker, “The Wire,” had Scott Simon in stitches, he was laughing so hard. Venkatesh was laughing along with him. Scott Simon, like Dan Abrams (MSNBC Veep), has serious hang-ups about black people and gets to cash in on them.
The week before, Jan.5, after Obama’s victory in Iowa, Scott Simon, and Daniel Schor announced that the United States had finally “transcended race.” With their actions during the following week, some white voters and Bill and Hillary Clinton said, not so fast! So did NPR, which found the miserable conditions of black Chicago project dwellers hilarious.
http://www.ishmaelreedpub.com/fall_2008/editorial/
And if you want to make a study research on Black Diaspora in Middle East, it takes more than one year to run around all over the place, and not looking for some one for a year and give him some money just to tell you what you want to hear so folks back in America can feel good about themselves and justifying their crimes.
And about Obama, well, let’s wait until the honeymoon is over, and start to discover what AFRICOM is doing to African people. I don’t think NPR (Neo-con Public Radio) is interested to make an interview about it.
Funny, the head of AFRICOM is also Black:
http://www.defenselink.mil/dodcmsshare/newsstoryPhoto/2007-07/scr_070710-A-ward.jpg
The reason you get hate mail is because of your brazenly hypocritical positions. You want Muslims to engage in self-criticism, yet you are silent on the many problems in the African-American community. You always are quick to condemn the violence committed by certain Muslims, but silent on the violence committed by African-Americans or the American government. So spare us your sanctimonius and patronising behaviour.
I typically ignore tin foil hat wearing Kooks, but let it be known (to those who don’t bother to check) that I have never denied that there are problems in my community. But unlike the kooks, I am working on a DAILY basis to SOLVE them like an adult instead of relying on dumb conspiracy theories and spreading slander. Contrary to what many of the kooks believe, I don’t think there is anything wrong with self examination and trying to IMPROVE the situation instead of continuing to live in a cultish fantasy world, talking bad about people (and even their children) and accomplishing nothing
@ bashir
Tariq consistently keeps the spotlight on the ills within the black community. You are obviously in deep denial and an apologists or supporter of Arab supremacy over blacks and/or people of African descent.
I am quite sure you think Darfur is either a tribal or economic problem having nothing to do with Arabization policies.
Unfortunately, your type has been exposed and the scrutiny will only intensify.
Once, we wake up African muslims the game will be up.
@ Tariq
You never explained why you banned me from your site, but that’s cool. What I’ve posted is a reminder to you and the rest; and the reminder benefits the Believer!
When something happens, or an issue comes up, the Muslim is charged with weighing it against the scale of the Qur’an and the Sunnah; BEFORE he speaks or acts. Seldom does anything occur outside the scope of the Shar’eeah, but when it does, we are supposed to refer the affairs back to people who have the most knowledge about the Book and the Sunnah; i.e. the scholars. EVERYTHING IS TO BE JUDGED BY THE SCALE OF THE RELIGION; BEGINNING WITH AT TAWHEED IN ULOOHIYYAH—SINGLING OUT ALLAAH, ALONE IN ALL ACTS OF WORSHIP. THE ENTIRE DEEN IS BASED ON THIS, AND IF THERE IS ANYTHING THAT VIOLATES IT; YOU DO NOT HAVE ISLAAM!!!
If you would have followed the path of the Believers regarding these people’s “cause” you are championing, once you read the NPR article you cited in your post, you should have abandoned them:
The first red flag is the fact that they are in Basra, which is a major city for the Raafidah Shia disbelievers, thus it is highly probable that these black Iraqis are Shi’a. The takfir of the Raafidah is as old as their existence. You can’t name a scholar from at least as far back as the Tabi’een who has not written about their kufr and their shirk!!! Shaykhul Islaam ibn Taymiyyah wrote a book refuting them called Manhajus Saalikeen.
Look at the evil that the black Iraqi’s you love so much are into:
The community has preserved many traditions from its African roots, including healing ceremonies that they say call up spirits from their ancient homeland. TARIQ, THIS IS MAJOR SHIRK WHICH REMOVES ONE FROM THE FOLD OF ISLAAM!
On a bright Saturday in Zubair, young men hang bright flags and prepare an altar for a ceremony they say will summon a spirit from Africa…He is the hereditary leader of this religious sect, which combines elements of Islam with African spirit traditions.” WHAT THE HELL IS THIS!?! IT IS NOT ISLAAM!!!!!!!!!
The flags, Baba Sa’eed says, represent the African countries associated with various spirits. At the center of the altar is a model of an Arab sailing dhow, the kind of ship that brought black people to this city. THIS IS SHIRK!!!!!
“These rituals,” he says, “are inherited self-expressions that were brought to us from Africa, through the ships that traded in this port.” THIS IS SHIRK!!!!!!!
The Baba cleanses the courtyard, by sprinkling it with water. He scents the hands of visitors with a cologne stick and offers tiny cups of bitter coffee. Then he takes his place by the altar, among the candles and incense burners, and tells the drummers to begin. THIS IS BIDAA!!!!
The ceremony begins with an Islamic invocation, as the drummers chant “there is no God, but God,” but soon the rhythm changes. The song says another being is announcing his presence, “a stranger is calling, the sea is calling.” THIS IS SHIRK!!!!!
Baba Sa’eed, who has been dancing with his arms and his upper body as he sits by the altar, goes rigid and begins speaking in what he later says was an African dialect, punctuated by phrases in broken Arabic. His voice goes into a weird upper register. The “dialect” has an improvised sound to it, and even the drummers don’t seem especially impressed by his spirit possession. He says this place has been blessed, before snapping out of it, with a dazed expression. THIS IS SHIRK AND LIKELY JINN POSESSION!!!!
Subhanallaah, Tariq it is not permissible for you to overlook any of this!?! Your Walaa for these people is solely because they are black, and this is haraam. It can’t be for the sake of Allaah because they have no Islaam. It is an obligation for the believer to make hijrah from these people!!! They are getting what they deserve.
RE: “the alleged founder of shiaism”
Ibn Saba aka “ibn Sawdah” (may Allaah give him what he deserves…Aameen) was the founder of the disbelieving shi’a. You use of the word “alleged” indicates you have some doubt about the authenticity of the ahadith clarifying his condition. If you doubt the narrations regarding ibn Saba, then I remind you that you stand in open opposition to the Sunnah, and the consensus of the Sahaabah and the Tabi’een, and the Scholars who follow them. This in itself is an ACT of kufr . You are not a kaffir because a scholar did not explain and clarify the matter to you, and you did not reject his/her the advice.
@ Daud
The issue here is not their theology (especially since it is not mentioned) but the way they are treated. Even if they are shiah, do you seriously think that they would be treated differently?
As for Ibn sawdaa then there are many people who even doubt his existence. I simply pointed out that whether or not he actually existed, he has been called racially disparaging names (including “black filthy creature”) for centuries because of his alleged skin color. If one wants to argue his beliefs that is one thing, but to insult a man’s appearance is another. Unless you are arguing that you believe it is ok to mistreat a person because they have different theology.
Unfortunately, years ago I used to approve of mistreating people because they were “kufaar” or “deviant”, but I no longer believe that. I don’t plan on going back to such nonsense and cultish behavior
@ Tariq
1. What do you mean that these people’s theology was “not mentioned”, when you’re the one who provided the link to the article in your post!?!
The issue is ALWAYS about Aqeedah, akhi because if you recall–and I hope you still do– Aqeedah comes FIRST!!! That determines how we treat people–and no, it is not the way of the Muslims to oppress even the kuffar. But, what you don’t know is that it is VERY likely that these black, Iraqi mushriks are being discriminated against by the raafidah shi’a mushriks, in which in case is of no concern for the Muslim!!!
2. As for ibn Saba (may Allaah give him what he deserves), you are jumping the gun by assuming that his being called ibn Sawdah is a racial slur–it could be a means by which the people distinguish him, and referred to him.
Those who try to deny his existence are nothing but the raafidah shi’a who want to conceal the FACT that their origin begins with a Jew. Ibn Saba’s existence and what he was upon was chronicled and narrated to us by the same people who we inhertied the Qur’an and the Sunnah from–THE SAHAABAH. Now, I know you wouldn’t dare try to cast doubt on the accuracy and trustworthiness of their narrations!
I get angry when I see blacks in the west fighting along side Arabs for their rights in the west when these same people treat their black minorities like crap. Slavery still goes on in countries boardering north Africa and do not see the Africa Union dicuss the issue. Arabs are adored by Africa muslims. Try to bring up the discrimination black minorities endour in Arabia and they will acuse you of being anti Islam. Sick people.
Daud,
You stated:
“these black, Iraqi mushriks are being discriminated against by the raafidah shi’a mushriks, in which in case is of no concern for the Muslim!!!”
I strongly disagree. We have to realize that we are part of the human family. The only thing that seperates a Muslim from anyone else is belief in Islam: nothing more. Not Arab lineage, wealth, education, etc.
So, as humans, we should be concerned with the human condition. The world is a lot smaller place than it was 1400 years ago. We are all connected. How we see and react to issues affecting the human condition like injustice, oppression, global warning, an inevitable energy crisis, disease, famine, etc.
should not be affected by our belief system, but by our ability to act.
I too tried to believe in this Salafist idea of only being concerned with the Muslims and then only the “right” Muslims, but this is such a flawed concept that I don’t even see the point in debating it. I’ll just say that the Qur’anic position on life (not just Muslim life) is pretty clear and the actions of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) toward non-muslims are pretty clear. For anyone that has non-Muslim family members and friends trying to follow this Salafist concept can do a lot of irreparable harm to their familial relationship.
You mind giving me a couple of examples? You ever heard of al-wala wal baraa?
Anyone from Ahlus Sunnah knows that that Islam is not about universal brotherhood, but about the brotherhood of believers:
We are taught that Muslims are 100% superior:
We are also instructed in the Qur’an to be compassionate with one another but harsh on the kufaar:
The Qur’an also says:
also
Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe. (8:55)
And there is no humanist injunction in our deen
This is not an interfaith religion and there is no injunction to be all co-equals
@ TawheedNotShirk
You forgot to give him this Ayah:
58:22 You (O Muhammad SAW) will not find any people who believe in Allâh and the last day, making friendship with those who oppose Allâh and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW ), even though they were their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred (people). For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with Rûh (proofs, light and true guidance) from Himself. And We will admit them to Gardens (Paradise) under which rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allâh is pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allâh. Verily, it is the Party of Allâh that will be the successful.
Read the Tafsir of ibn Kathir regarding this Ayah. It was revealed when some of the Sahaabah (radiyyallaahu anhum) killed the likes of their fathers and brothers in the battle of Badr, who were amongst the disbelievers of Quraish.
Baarakallaahu feek akhi for replying to Abdul Kareem’s ignorant statements. What he probably doesn’t know is that he may have nullified his Islaam because his “opinion” opposes the Book of Allaah. This is an act of kufr which he must make tawbah from.
.
As Salamu laykum
There is no veil between the dua of the oppressed and Allah ta ala, Allah aids oppressed people even kuffar even sinners , the Messenger sallalllahu alyhi wa sallam was apart of a group that enjoined the good and forbid the evil in Arabia before prophethood and he said he would do it again even with a group of non-mulsims after prophethood!!! Ibn Taymiyyah said Allah would be more pleased with a kaffar nation that extablished justicice over a muslim one that didn’t.
So my Salafi brothers have Quran and Sunnah but no Fiqh and that is dangerous.
This is not rocket science Allah doesn’t like injustance against anyone!!!! the issue isn’t about being friends with sinners or the kuffar. All the ayat and hadeeth mean nothing if you have no soul or brains to understand simple concepts a 5 year old knows by nature(fitrah).
Oh fake internet alim stopping talking about things you have no fiqh of and just hush and stop oppressing the people with your out of control nafs. Do you think you fool people ? offline your know your your tyrone not abdullah, instead of debating online go fight your nafs, grow up, advance in life.
RE: There is no veil between the dua of the oppressed and Allah ta ala, Allah aids oppressed people even kuffar even sinners
WHAT YOU STATED ABOVE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE NASIHAH TawhidNotShirk AND I ARE GIVING TO ABDUL KARIM. WE BOTH GAVE HIM CLEAR AYAAT, AND I ALSO ADDED TAFSIR, SO WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
RE: the Messenger sallalllahu alyhi wa sallam was apart of a group that enjoined the good and forbid the evil in Arabia before prophethood and he said he would do it again even with a group of non-mulsims after prophethood!!!
WHAT WAS THE “GROUP” HE WAS IN IN JAAHILIYYAH BECAUSE THAT’S THE TIME PERIOD YOU’RE REFERRING TO!?! BRING YOUR PROOFS TO SUBSTANTIATE YOUR CLAIM. THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS UPON THE CLAIMANT. IF YOU CAN’T PROVE IT, LET IT BE KNOWN THAT YOU ARE A LIAR.
RE: Ibn Taymiyyah said Allah would be more pleased with a kaffar nation that extablished justicice over a muslim one that didn’t.
BRING THIS STATEMENT FROM IBN TAYMIYYAH. WHAT BOOK IS IT IN!?!
RE: So my Salafi brothers have Quran and Sunnah but no Fiqh and that is dangerous.
LOL!! YOU’RE THE ONE WHO DOESN’T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT. BRING YOUR PROOFS, AND NAME YOUR MEN!!!
I am so sick of these fake wanna be salafi nadji pretending neeee-grows, how can you stand yourself being so phony your going to lecture eveyone about wala and baraa lol!!!! news flash ahki your ignorant … your not a alim I don’t care if you order every book Triod has …I don’t care if you listen to paltalk everyday … if you had knowledge you would use on yourself and your fam first!!!!!! thanks but no thanks jazak Allahu khair … you have nothing to offer that helps anything or anyone.
The report about the Prophet sallahu layhi wa salalm is in Sealled Nector , i will bring you the source of the ibn taymiyyah narration inshaallah ta ala.
I am not sure what your fiqh background is so I will not assume but rulings have various shades and way to be applied depending on the context a ayat or hadeeth is not one size fits all or strictly literal if thats the case then the rulers of KSA are kuffar because Allah said what means whoever doesn’t rule but Allah revealed is a a kaffer.
Fiqh is a lost art you should take Shaykh Al Albani’s advise and study a mathab and that statement is on fatwaonline
You made the statements, so either bring your proofs or shut your mouth.
RE: “…your going to lecture eveyone about wala and baraa…”
Yes, I will pass on what the scholars’ explanation of walaa wal baraa, because it is the asl of every relationship the Muslim has. Did you forget that the reminder benefits the believer!?!
Calling me a “najdi”, you sound like a tablighi, sufi.
LOL O ignorant one. If you knew what you were talking about, you would know that the “Sealed Nectar” is full of weak narrations. It’s good for learning a general overview of what was going on back them, but that book is not a proof for anything. So, bring your proofs or shut your mouth!!!!!!!!!!
RE: I am not sure what your fiqh background is so I will not assume but rulings have various shades and way to be applied depending on the context a ayat or hadeeth is not one size fits all or strictly literal if thats the case then the rulers of KSA are kuffar because Allah said what means whoever doesn’t rule but Allah revealed is a a kaffer
NO ONE, AGAIN, NO ONE has an opinion in the presence of a text ( i.e. an Ayaah from Allaah, or an authentic hadith) rather the Believer MUST submit to the text!!! This is basic Islaam 101. TaweedNotShirk and I were brought Ayaat from Allaah to refute Abdul Kareem’s false belief, and I added the tafsir of the Ayaah that I brought. So what could you, as a Muslim, possibly have to say after that!?
You need to close the comment section to topics that passed. This place has become gossip central rather than a place to read interesting topics.
As Salamu laykum ahk
I am Muslim the best name from Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaa’ah the original classical Sunni Islam not the new not improved Saudi oil money funded model, if in your mind you feel your doing a stand up job of refuting and giving advise will good for ya akh. But you and your like minded co-sect member have turned a simple civil discussion among Muslim’s into a “manhaj” war. I do not know exactly how this helps me and you get to jannah or avoid the penalties of our sins, I really do not know how it purifies the heart or full feels the rights of each other.
This is not the manhaj of the salaf you can call it that, but you can call brass gold all day but you will not perform some miracle of alchemy by mere words. Your missing the forest for the tree’s, let me give you a clear undeniable proof your fitrah, when you see a human being suffer you should if your not warped feel some compassion, empathy concern.
It’s not from the fitrah of a human to see another human being mistreated and stop and say will hold on before I dislike or stop this injustice let me find out that persons aqeedah, no normal human being thinks like that you have to be trained indoctrinated to think like that. Because normal humans know wrong is wrong injustice is wrong against anyone no matter what that persons beliefs are.
Ahki if being a cold heartless quran thumper is your manhaj you will be giving the dawah to the birds and rabbits in a desolate desert by yourself in the next 10 to 20 years, normal intelligent human’s are not going to accept that kind of dawah.
If you think for one second that Rasoolullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam would see a human being oppress and the first thing he would be concerned about is if that person believes Allah is literally in the sky or not before he offered plain normal compassion then you don’t know rasoolullah you may know same narration but you have no clue who that man was, you really know Allah ta ala just know some quotes about him.
Just because you memorize some athar and your make taqlid of Al Albani’s grading of them doesn’t mean you know the meaning behind it or how to apply it to a giving situation. this is the danger of laymen like you and me quoting athar with no qualified training in fiqh you miss intrepid and misapply …which is a form of oppression.
When a non-Muslim or non practicing Muslim comes here and see’s you all going into a theological war with people when the topic is how a certain group of people are being mistreated in a certain place, they will not be able to distinguish your minority view from real Islam, they will assume that your neo salafi rants are Islam.
That is not Islam
sorry for the misspelling but i banged that one out, let me give you this as a qoute from a unknown source
” True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred.”
Complete religious certainty leads to a lack of compassion….
TawheedNotShirk, if the Muslims are 100% superior to everyone else, except for belief then name the ways we are superior present day.
Daud, my belief is the only thing that distinguishes me from my kafir brother. Except for belief, my kafir grandmothers are much better human beings and much less flawed than me.
Those early wars fought with family members on both sides were wars of extinction. The Quresh were trying to extinguish the light of Islam. So, what choice did the sahaaba have when they met a family member from the opposition on the battlefield. But that isn’t reality for me.
Questions to ponder:
How can the best of us before deen be the best of us in deen if belief isn’t the only thing that seperates us?
How did Rasoolullah treat kafir neighbors who mistreated him?
What were his reactions to false prophets and enemies trying to humilitate or assassinate him?
When the Qur’an speaks of the sanctity of life, does it make a distinction between muslim and kafir life?
When we are enjoined to not break bonds of kinship, is their a distinction made between muslim and kafir family?
If muslim men can marry certain kafir women, then how are we supposed to treat her and her family before and after marriage?
Daud, you have concluded that I have nullified my Islam based off of one statement on a blog. I remember when I was in my early twenties and had only been a muslim for a few years. I made knee-jerk takfir on people too. Your behavior brings back cring-filled memories. According to Islamic jurisprudence, only an Islamic Court with stringent evidence can make such a pronouncement. What Islamic Courts do we have access to in the Americas?
How did the hypocrites during the time of Prophet Muhammad (saw) continue their cancerous activities for so long? How were they allowed to build a masjid? It’s a good thing our Nabi (saw) was compassionate and slow to judgement.
So, if we muslims are superior to all of humanity, then are Arabs superior to all muslims because the last prophet comes from them and the Qur’an is in Arabic?
There have been differences of opinion and interpretation of ayaat and hadith since the earliest muslims: even on major issues. Islam hasn’t given us the answers to everything that we will experience in life.
What possible explanation can you have for the civil wars that were fought amongst the earliest generations of muslims? They had differences. Dogmatic ones, personal ones, practical ones, etc. Of all the Sufis, Tablighis, etc. that I know, I can’t think of anything that would make me want to use violence to resolve my differences with them.
What are we enjoined to say when we are debating the kufar over what’s the true religion?
We are told to wait and see what happens. Think about that….wait and see. That’s the best we have to end a debate. Not only are they waiting to see, but we are too. If we can’t take an absolutist position with the grandest question of our live’s on Earth, then how can we be so absolutist internally with each other on lesser issues? One of the purposes of miracles was to bolster the faith (not certainty) of the believers.
Daud and TawheedNotShirk and your fellow dogmist, get over it. Except for the major pillars of faith, there is no “ONE” Islam. Even the articles of faith have been debated. If you consider the Shia position, then there is even difference of opinion one the pillars.
And when did this mythical Islamic state ever exist?
Many don’t consider what Abu Bakr inherited a “state”. Prophet Muhammand (pbuh) didn’t even consider the issue of succession important enough to leave clear guidance. Furthermore, only Abu Bakr peacefully transfered power and he only reigned for two years and 3 months. The kingdoms after Ali were dominated by family and tribal lineages and supremacy of the Arab race was the de facto belief for their claim to power. But that’s a completely different issue that merits it’s on discussion thread.
@ Abdul-Kareem
It seems that you are EXTREMELY ignorant of the seerah and are trying to construct some figure to your modern day liking. Morals were set 1,400 years ago during the revelation of the Qur’an and the Sunnah.
The Prophet (sal Allaahu alayhi wa salam) was HARSH toward the kufaar. The Sahaabah assassinated Kab ibn Ashraf and Abu Rafi with his approval. In Bukhari we see:
and
Those are just two examples. Your contention is nonsense and you need to read the seerah
He killed them and/or had them killed. Musalamah the Liar was assassinated by the Sahaabah
ABSOLUTELY! The kaafir is not like the Muslim. The kaafir’s life has no sanctity except when paying the jiziyah.
That still does not change the FACT that the sahaabah killed family for this deen
Our Prophet (sal Allaahu alayhi wa salam) was not some Ghandi figure that you modernists try to turn him into.
MYTHICAL, Islamic state??? This deen is complete from top to bottom. EVERYTHING has been revealed to us on how to live our lives and that includes the affairs of STATE. We are not secularists and do not believe in ruling by man made law. We have something better and it is sufficient and complete for us. And we will be successful at spreading it all over the world
@ Abdul-Kareem
If I had your email I would email you offline but Daud and his cohorts are frauds they have yet to EVER produce a single ijaza yet are always typing in capitals about name your men LOL
Their own shaykhs in saudi have stated that it is impermissable for them to make any ruling. That is they are not permited to apply an ayat or hadith to any situation and draw a conclusion, they can only repeat verbetum rulings the kibaar have already given and every case requires new rulings from the kibaar.
So to debate with those whom by their own standards are unqualified to give oppinion is baseless.
For the record I readily admit I’m unlearned, yet it’s funny how the gatekeeper of tawheed in the blogosphere Daud has yet to find a single alim to vouch he speaks from knowledge LOL perhaps Shaykh TROID or Shaykh Spubs PDF will vouch for them LOL
TawheedNotShirk,
Wow, most of your responses involved killing. Most of your examples don’t help me understand the world I live in now. Jihad isn’t in my immediate plans so I won’t be taking any concubines, slaves, or divying up any war booty anytime soon. I have no plans to assassinate someone who is threatening my beloved Kalifh either.
There are plenty examples from the seerah were Prophet Muhammad (saw) showed kindness and restraint to non-muslims. Instances where he didn’t were when he was dealing with avowed enemies, not some run-of-the-mill non-muslim that wasn’t threatening the nascent religion.
And I am not a modernest. I’m just trying to understand how to apply Islam to my reality. Killing, warfare, harshness, hate, etc. doesn’t apply to my life as a cubical-bound network engineer. So where does that leave me? I apply the same logic, ration, and reason that lead me to Islam to figure out how to implement Islam in my life that is pleasing to Allah. Like or not, we are facing different issues from the first generation. They were in a near perpetual state of warfare. They were fighting to survive. Except for keeping my food halaal and guarding my tongue and private parts, I am not living in a constant state of threat.
Until 911, my family thought positively of my conversion to Islam. So killing them for deen (how could I ever be thrust into such a situation) has never crossed my mind.
You cherry-picked the comments of mine to respond to just like you pick and choose Islamic teachings to support your view of what Islam should be. Muslims have been having this debate of what Islam is from just about the very beginning of the religion, so lay off the name calling and the vitriol. We aren’t the first Muslims to disagree and we won’t be the last.
The deen is complete. It’s perfect: in the sense that we have the guidance we need to get to Jinnah, but we don’t have answers to every single issue. You surely can’t debate that, otherwise we wouldn’t have the science of qiyas.
We don’t believe in man-made law? All affairs of state have been revealed? What laws in Saudi concerning traffic, food safety, firearms, healthcare, industrial waste, and so on are divine? These weren’t revealed and qiyas wasn’t necessarily used to make these laws either?
How should muslim countries deal with medical advances, space exploration, green technologies, preparing their oil dependent nations for the inevitable shift to new forms of energy, crumbling infrastructure or lack thereof, etc?
Or should they be only manufacturing weapons to prerare for the next victim to subdue to the jizyah? Wait, heavy industry is virtually nil in muslim countries. We couldn’t do that if we wanted to.
Speaking of wala and baraa…have you immigrated or moved back to a muslim country? I’m African-American and I’m not going anywhere where I won’t be considered an equal socially or legally.
I’m done, so unless you insult my mama I’m not submitting anymore responses to you.
Abu Usamah al-Aswad,
Get it from Tariq.
TawheedNotShirk,
I missed your last sentence on the previous response so this one doesn’t count:
“And we will be successful at spreading it all over the world”
That’s not prophesized to happen until the return of Isa bin Maryam (as). I would think that if it was going to happen before then, then that would have been a major event that would have had to have been prophesized about if the deen is indeed all-encompasing. In the light of lack of prophesy of the world-wide spread of deen before Isa’s (as) return, then I would have to say that we were never intended to perpetually be seeking jihad. Or, it was written for us to be utter failures. I guess it is debatable, but I can’t see a period in Islamic history worse than the one we are in. It would take a miracle for us to even make preparations for jihad.
There is several generations worth of work fixing our own countries instead of worrying about subduing non-muslim countries to the jizyah: like jizyah is even a reality for any country today. Where do we even begin: education, economics, creating a middle-class, creation of industries, and eradicating superstitions, racism, backwards thinking, and the subjugation of our women (honor killings, genital mutilation, acid attacks, women not driving, etc.)?
I didn’t hate and despise people before deen. I was personable and empathetic to those less fortunate. I can’t change my personality. You always have to be on guard to hate and despise people. I can’t live that way.
Abdul Kareem and Muslimthebestname
You guys made some ignorant statements, then tried to bring some proofs, but when challenged to produce your evidence all you produced is rhetoric!!! One of our salaf said, “Islaam is a Deen of proofs, not opinions”. Bring your proofs and stop talking smack. I remind you that speaking about Allaah’s Deen without knowledge is from the shaytaan.
2:169 [Shaitân (Satan)] commands you only what is evil and Fahshâ (sinful), and that you should say against Allâh what you know not.
I NEVER made takfir of anyone, and all it takes is to look at my post and you will see that; so it is deceptive for you to try to say I did. I knew you were going to go there because you have nothing else to say!!!
The both of you made statements that you must provide evidence for; or you have exposed yourselves as ignorant liars.
You belittle the manhaj of our salaf by by mocking the statement “name your men”. Do you not recall the statment “the isnaad is part of the Deen, if it were not for the isnaad people could say anything they wanted (about the Deen)”.
So, just like our salaf used to challenge the narrators of falsehood; name you men, or shut your mouths!!!!!!!!
Daud,
you stated:
“What he probably doesn’t know is that he may have nullified his Islaam because his “opinion” opposes the Book of Allaah. This is an act of kufr which he must make tawbah from”
You used the absoutist word “must” in reference to an act of kufr, so I could only conclude that you made takfir upon me.
“shut your mouths”……really?…..that’s really juvenile.
Assalamu alaikum, uh, wow, just wow! That’s all I can think to say at this point, the violence and hatred I’m seeing in these comments has just left me speechless! Funny that people can quote hadiths of the Prophet (peace be upon him) “killing people” supposedly “in the name of Islam” or at least, getting people to kill for him, yet I see none of these people quoting any of the hadith dealing with the Propeht’s kindness, gentleness, mercy, etc.
I can definitely see how Mulims can commit terrorist acts now (although some Muslims want to blame it on Masad or some other kind of conspiracy theory).
This frightens me as a Muslim woman, if these commentors, or people like them, wouldn’t even show mercy to ther fellow Muslims (or “kufr”), how would they treat the women?
Just a few thoughts, and I know, not really in an organized fashion, however, like I said, I’m just shocked, though I’m not sure why. Judging by some of the previous comments that I’ve seen in the past, I really shouldn’t be. But, well, I’ll stop now.
@ Abdul-Kareem
Read this:
Daud,
You stated:
“but when challenged to produce your evidence all you produced is rhetoric!!!”
Rhetoric? I was spewing reality. I can’t consult some 10th century scholar’s writing for guidance on how to solve many of the modern day problems we face, especially in muslim countries. I can’t even consult modern day scholars in many instances. I don’t need to consult a scholar to form my own opinion on the environment or something like growing a trachea with stem cell technology (which was recently done). The trips that I have made to muslims countries is all the evidence I need to know that we have way too much work ahead of us to be worried about jihad, jizyah, or the aqeedah of someone before we help them.
Have you seen how we treat each other in our own countries? Have you seen the crumbling infrastructure or the lack of service and manufacturing industries…the lack of education, the oppression of women, minorities, disabled and the poor…the poor standard of education, the dirty streets and alleys, the lack of sanitation and the pitiful healthcare systems?
This is reality. I don’t need a scholar to tell me how to form a grass roots organization to clean the streets or to petition the government to pass stronger anti-honor killing legislation.
Of course, I’m all for more religious education too (because encountered more non-religious folks on my oversees trips), but we can’t avoid addressing these real issues.
@ Abdul Kareem
I said you MIGHT have nullified your Islaam; I did not say you DID nullify it. Only Allaah knows. Since there is the possibility, I told you that you MUST make tawbah!!!
@ Abu Usamah al-Aswad
RE: “If I had your email I would email you offline but Daud and his cohorts are frauds they have yet to EVER produce a single ijaza yet are always typing in capitals about name your men LOL”
We don’t respond to this because “it has nothing to do with the price of tea in China.” Why do you think I have to have an ijaza to refute baatil!?! I don’t need an ijaza because I don’t give fataawa, and that’s because I know I am far from being qualified to do so. I bring Ayaat with correct tafsir (ibn Kathir, rahimahullaah), authentic hadith explained by legitimate scholars, and statements by the scholars.
@ Abdul Kareem
RE: “Where do we even begin: education, economics, creating a middle-class, creation of industries, and eradicating superstitions, racism, backwards thinking, and the subjugation of our women (honor killings, genital mutilation, acid attacks, women not driving, etc.)?”
You’re making the same mistake that unfortunately most Muslims make; and that is you begin your da’wah with calls to dealing with worldly affairs first. The da’wah should begin with calling the Muslims correct their Islaamic Aqeedah (beliefs) and to implement correct Islaam into every aspect of our lives. Now days, Muslims differ over issues of belief where we actually are not allowed to differ over–which is directly related to why you see our worldly affairs are so “jacked-up”, and why the Ummah is in the humiliated condition we’re in. The Prophet (salallaahu alayhi wa salam) said,
“…Allaah’s humiliation will descend upon you, and He will not lift His humiliation up until you return back to your Religion”.
This is nothing else but a call to getting the correct understanding of Islaam. Once this gets straightened out and the Muslims are on the same page, then our priority is to, stop committing shirk–which covers what you call “eradicating superstitions”. The Ummah has it’s priorities misplaced because most Muslims read and study the deviate works of people like Sayyed Qutb and Mawdudi, who call the people to establishment of the Islaamic state, khilaafah etc. This is not what the Prophet (salallaahu alayhi wa salam) did, and it is not where He began his da’wah.
Many of you on this blog belittle the scholars, while Allaah praises them in His Qur’an in several places. In Surah Aali Imran, Allaah placed the witness of the scholars to the testimony Laa ilahaa illaa huwa, along side the Angels (alayhi wa salaatu salam).
3:18 Allâh bears witness that Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), and the angels, and those having knowledge (also give this witness); (He is always) maintaining His creation in Justice. Lâ ilâh illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.
Y’all just don’t get it. The scholars teach us what we don’t know about the Deen, which is a lot; and in our case here in America it’s even more critical because Islaam is so new here. There’s a proliferation of charlatans pimping the Muslims. This list is long and includes many people who the Muslims nowdays love to listen to; people like Hamza Yusuf, who translated a shirk filled poem into english for people to read, who hangs out with known mushriks; people like Sherman jackson, the orientalist who calls the people to sufism; as well as ignoramuses like
WD, and Siraj wahaj who can’t even say salallaahu alayhi wa salam or subhan wa ta a’laa correctly despite being Muslim for over thirty years, and the rest of the knuckleheads misguiding Muslims in America. If you analyze what they say, and judge it against the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah, you will realize that they are ignorant. The only reason why people follow them is because the masses are are even more ignorant then they are.
The Messenger of Allaah (salallaahu alayhi wa salam) drew a long line in the sand, then said “this is the straight path”. He then drew perpendicular ones connected to it and said “these are the paths to misguidance; at the head of each misguided path is a shaytaan calling to it”.
I hate the fact that there are sooooo many jerkoffs out there misguiding brothers and sisters; who simply love Islaam, and want nothing more than to be told the truth. The Dawatus Salafiyyah is nothing else but true Islaam, but some of those from amongst us Muslims who are shayaateen amonst mankind; who profess eemaan but actually hate it; and speak and act against the truth and its people. Allaah will always expose the hypocrites. Its actually beautiful when you look at how Allaah protects His Deen and the Believers. Deviate groups once flourished, but Allaah turned them into relics– the nation of kufr, WD and his nonsense, the Ansar cult etc, etc, etc–Allaah will deal with all those people.
As Salamu laykum
Ahki you have yet to reply to any of my salams this i guess must mean i am off the manhaj now lol!!! whatever… moving on. i have not failed to bring proof I just have a life and a job and an family and do not have time to “refute batil” on the internet all day long… i don’t marry sisters and put them on welfare and set around listening to pal talk all day… I am not sure how that is “following the salaf” but anyway.
Ahki why not go ask the people of Ilm about what I said you may be surprised, again you have made open takfir and you have attempted ijtihad on this website.. may Allah guild you from this fitnah mentally you are upon. ameen.
I used to be upon this so-called salafi dawah until i went and studied Shafi’i fiqh with a teacher who actually didn’t drop out of Islamic studies and has a ijazah to teach and that opened my eyes and mind, this so-called salafiyyah that is popular among some American Muslim youth is a innovation no doubt about it. You guys are opposing the majority of the ulamah of the past like Noble Imaam’s Nawawi, Suyuti, Ibn Hajar Asqalani whom you claim made mistakes.
I saw on salafitalk once a “salafi” so-called imply the salat of millions of Muslim’s is invalid because they do not follow the fiqh rulings of Albani..astagfirullah!!! this is the mark of the khawarij, if this movement had power in America i would not doubt that it would shut down non so-called salafi masjid’s, force their opinions on people by the sword, and generally oppress humanity like so-called salafi’s are doing overseas now.
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@ Daud,
I see that you are on a role today. You forgot to mention, however, this guy on the circuit:
This is from 2006–fast forward it the lecture to 24:00 and then let it play for about 40 seconds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t5MK7Q9MCw
That wasn’t a slip of the tongue in ‘06, for in 2007 he said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ0Rfu4R_Qc
Fast forward the lecture to 18:00 and let it play for the net 30 seconds.
So there you have it: a person calling himself Muslim who claims a “love for kuffaar” (although the Qur’an says EXPLICITLY that Allah does not love the kuffaar–Aal `Imraan, 32) and that Allah has offspring. Apparently he forgot the Hadith Qudsi in which Allah revealed:
“My slave curses me when he has no right to do so. He curses me be ascribing a son to Me.”
Some people will such to defend these OBVIOUSLY deviant statements because they think the speaker is a “scholar”. NO BOOK OF `AQIDAH would dare say what this man said to crowds of thousands. May Allah protect us.
It has become pretty obvious that these guys are on the Cheryl Benard program. They are attempting to dismantle the Religion under the guise of Traditional Sunni Islamic scholarship—no, they are not on the Irshad Manji program (whose evil is pretty evident to all but the MOST IGNORANT), but they are preying on those unsuspecting masses of Muslims who never learned their Religion. Your quote pretty much sums it up:
“If you analyze what they say, and judge it against the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah, you will realize that they are ignorant. The only reason why people follow them is because the masses are are even more ignorant then they are.”
May Allah guide and protect us.
swarthmoor.wordpress.com
Daud,
You wrote,
“Y’all just don’t get it. The scholars teach us what we don’t know about the Deen, which is a lot; ”
Don’t get me wrong. I have no problem with the scholars and I mean no disrepect to scholars of the past or present day. I just get tired of the silence of scholars on certain everyday issues. They seem to be perched on high lofts instead of being grassroots leaders and social agitators.
I also get tired of scholars making fataawa on issues that they are not qualified to do so. Just because you are in expert in Islam, doesn’t make you and expert in economics, global finance, international trade, diplomacy, energy, medicine, technology, or any other complex science.
I’m especially irked when I read a fatwa on a complex secular subject that flies in the face of logic, pragmatism, and reason. I’m a grown man. I can think for myself. I did before converting to Islam. It’s my analytical thought and Allah’s guidance that lead me to Islam. I feel pretty confident that my analytical thought still works. Just because I disagree with a scholar doesn’t make me a hypocrite. If I encountered an issue in my field that was questionable, some venerated salafi scholar my not necessarily be able to help me.
I am an advocate of having a shura of experts from different fields including religious scholars work on the complex issues facing the muslim world.
You wrote,
“You’re making the same mistake that unfortunately most Muslims make; and that is you begin your da’wah with calls to dealing with worldly affairs first. ”
I used to believe that, but why can’t we work on both?So, you are saying that we can’t pass harshers laws against racism, oppression of women, corruption of public officials and such until we educate everyone into the proper aqeedah. Just look at the history of America with these issues. You act like their is something magically different with muslim societies that keeps us from reponding to the the same issues that other non-muslim societies have responded to succesffuly.
If you’ve traveled the world, then have you not observed how remarkably the same all of us are as humans regardless of faith?
So you’re saying that we can’t diversify our economies and improve medical facities, etc. while we educate our populaces out of shirk? Come on!
I think that the religious dawah will be more effective if we had success in both simultaneously. If the government told me to stop worshipping at graves or to stop asking some sufi sheik to intercede for me, but I can’t access the government without bribing someone (or because of the color of my skin) or my sick child can’t get proper medical treatment, then that message will fall on deafs ears.
People need to have hope in this world and in the hereafter. Everybody is not going to have the high levels of faith that one needs (in my opinion) to follow the salafi minhaj. Hope in the dunyaa no doubt affects your faith. Why do you think Hezbollah for example runs free clinics and food programs? Why do you think the barbarians recruiting suicide bombers give assurances to their recruits that their families will be taken care of?
I am not against salafism, either. I agree with a lot of it. I just won’t be pigeon-holed.
@ Swarth Moor
I see you’re back to the same antics, why don’t you give Cheryl my regards from the Muslims when you see her
“We dont respond to this because it has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. Why do you think I have to have an ijaza to refute baatil!?!”
true ijaza and isnad are the bedrock of the deenul Islam without it any joe blow can buy a few books of hadith, download a few dozen spub and troid pdf, listen to some audios then start to mistranslate Quran and misquote scholars anyway they like.
Alhamdulillah, though immediately after the Prophet (saws) the sahabah realized similar could occur so they meticulously wrote whom one should take and this chain is unbroken until today so BEFORE you can speak with certainty you have to be part of the chain.
And the ignorance in your response proves you are not linked otherwise you would know its importance.
Also the utter disregard for adab also belies your disconnect to the scholars.
You claim to speak with authority quoting Qur’an and hadith, so again with whom have you sat to again this understanding? I am not even going to go into the merits of your points until you establish with whom have you sat.
Name your people, Akhi!
@ Swath moor
Baarakallaahu Feek, akhi. How can I forget zaid shakir.
RE: “I also get tired of scholars making fataawa on issues that they are not qualified to do so.”
Who says they’re not qualified!?! That’s an evil assumption you have, and it is false!
RE: “Just because you are in expert in Islam, doesn’t make you and expert in economics, global finance, international trade, diplomacy, energy, medicine, technology, or any other complex science.”
The Messenger of Allaah (salallaahu alayhi wa salam) said “the superiority of the scholar over the common Muslim, is like my superority over you”; and that “the scholars are the inheritors of the Prophets (alayhimus salaatu wa salam).” Just because someone is a scholar in Islaam does not mean that there is a disconnect between him or her, and dunyahwiyy knowledge. There are people from amongst our ranks who want to keep Muslims ignorant of their Deen so they can exploit them, and take their wealth from them. One of the most effective ways they use to accomplish their goal is to separate the people from the scholars. These people outwardly profess, and show eemaan; yet they speak and take actions that oppose eemaan. It’s amazing. You see people who haven’t got anything near what the scholars have, but yet go around talking about them, and call the people away from them; people like Hamza Yusuf, Zaid Shakir (shukran Swathmoor, I forgot about him), Jamil Al Amin (what the hell does he know about Islaam?), Hakim Quick etc.
Subhanallaah, akhi!! Why do you automatically think that scholars are only versed in Islaamic knowledge—which by the way is still the most beneficial knowledge!?! Why? This belief is false and shows that your mind has been poisoned by someone who wants you to latch onto him, or by someone who wants you to follow who he’s following. Your thoughts about the scholars is inconsistant with our history, past and recent, and mirrors the ancient accusations and attacks on the scholars of the past, that they did not have “fiqhul waaki’ i.e. knowledge of the current affairs . The people of innovation and desires used to belittle the scholars of the salaf by claiming their knowledge was limited to “trivial” things like womens’ menses, so they used to call them “scholars of women’s menses”. Misguided Muslims continue to do this today by calling scholars in Saudi Arabia, “scholars for dollars”. Yeah, this clever statement riles up the emotions of the people, but if you examine it closely, it is false!!!!!!!!!!!!
Read the biographies of the scholars of the past, and you will find that people like Ibn Taymiyyah (rahimahullaah), was a physician, mathematician and many other things; so much so that it was written that “if you talk to him about any subject, you would think that, that was his field of expertise “. Look at his student Ibnul Qayyum Al Jawziyyah (rahimahullaah). Why do you think he had so much insight in explaining the link between the illnesses of the heart and illnesses of the body?…because he too was a physician. This has not changed in our times! Shaykh Abdullaah Al Jarboo’, who is the head of the Aqeedah Department at the Islaamic University of Madinah is a Phd in Chemical Engineering, and had a high position in the oil company until he left it to study Deen. Dr. Saalih As Saalih (rahimahullaah) was a Phd in Biochemistry, yet he was one of the foremost students of Shaykh Uthaymeen. I once read a fatwaa where Shaykh Uthaymeen (rahimahullaah) declared an insurance policy haraam. Now mind you, when I was an undergrad at Temple University’s business school, they make you take Risk Management and Insurancer as part of core courses, so I had detailed knowledge of insurance, so I wanted to see what he knew. Shaykh Uthaymeen explained the principals of the risk component of the insurance policy like an actuary would. I was totally surprised!!!!! In summary, yes you will find scholars who spent their entire lives studying Islaam, and we NEED these types of people. But there are also others who had other careers prior to studying deen, and are experts in those dunyawiyy fields.
I challenge all of you to go ask your black Muslim companions to name ten Sahaabah, or ten tabiyy’een. You’d be surprised at how many of them can’t. Ask your friends to recite Al fatihah; and watch how many of them ignore the rules of Tajweed—because we don’t think it’s important to study it—and fail to give the twelve shaddah’s their rights, which without them, you have no Salaat! People have been leading their families in prayer for decades making this mistake. Ask your friends to recite Surah Ikhlas, and watch how many mispronounce the Saad in Allaahus Saamad, which changes Allaahus Saamad’s meaning to Allaah is feces!!! Subhanallaah, the black folks in America tribe is negligent when it comes to this Deen and have NOT put in the work other tribes have when they received guidance. Yet you have ignorant callers from our tribe talking smack against the scholars, while they call to themselves: the “indigenous scholars”, LOL. Look at how many people come to this blog and make statements of kufr while opposing Ayaat and authentic ahadith with their opinions, and make ignorant statements that could nullify their Islaam. Amazingly Tariq doesn’t even say anything to them. Then, when someone tries to correct them, or advise them, he/she is called an extremist, or say he/she has a “cult-like” mindset. Subhanallaah. This kind of speech is nothing but evil, and many of you people here are ignorant. The only ones who can advise us and show us how to improve our condition when it comes to this Deen, are the SCHOLARS. We NEED the Scholars!!!!!!!!!!!
Because many of you are deceived by ignorant talkers in the west, you are probably thinking, “Daud has no knowledge or love of “self”, as espoused by WD’s misguided, pseudo afro-centric movement. WD and his people hate Arabs, mock Religiousity, and anything Islaamic; including knowledge, traditional scholarship, and even “looking like a Muslim”; because, as Swathmoor once eloquently stated; WD isolated his people and kept them away from Arabs so they wouldn’t realize how ignorant they were. Note that when I say Arabs, I’m talking about Arabs who know their Deen, which is few because there are so many ignorant Muslims in Muslims countries. That’s how bad the Ummaah’s condition is.
I’m talking about myself first and foremost. Islaam has been in America for nearly fifty years; yet in all that time, NO ONE has reached the level of a scholar. You find Black Muslims always talk trash about their Islaam, like we’ve doing something; yet the reality is, that most of us are completely ignorant of the Deen. No one in he west has inherited the legacy of the great scholars of Islaam; like At Tawoos, Al Mujaahid, and Ibnul Mubaarik; Sufyaan Al Thawree, Awzaee, and Uyaynah; nor the likes of Imam Maalik, Imam Shafi’ee, or Ahmad ibn Hanbal etc, etc, etc. Who has inherited this Islaamic legacy from amongst the “talkers” in the west. NONE OF THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Daud,
Wow bro, that was a mouthful. I agree with some of what you said. But, please stop putting words in my mouth.
I have no issue with Islamic scholarship. I too lament the fact that we don’t have American scholars.
Let me try to restate what I am saying. Islam isn’t the only subject that someone can be a scholar at. So scholars in Islam who have no background in a particular science should consult with or defer to someone that is an expert in the subject at hand. I’ve seen fataawa on the web where it’s clear that the scholar who made it didn’t have a deep understanding of the subject. And I’ve seen it the other way around. I know there are multi-disciplinary scholars from the past and present, but know one is an expert at every discipline. If you are not, then defer or consult. That’s all I’m saying. Scholars don’t magically become smarter once they memorize a certain number of hadith.
Just like are society’s aren’t magically going to get better once the right ratio of people stop commiting shirk. The sub-standard hospital will be the same. We have to work on our problems…not sit around and wait for a miracle. Tie your camel…
Please stop calling people or their opinions evil just because they disagree with you. It doesn’t make your argument stronger…but, I know how you are going to respond to this, so don’t waste you time. I don’t mind be called wrong, but EVIL…..
And my mind is poisoned by someone….. Brother…please….what do I say to that other than an unpleasantry….your incredibly impolite.
It’s sad to say, but just like so many other salafi’s that I’ve known. When I was into the salafi dawah years ago a brother at my masjid told me and Tariq that he noticed that people’s behavior worsens when they study salafism. He beseeched us to not make that mistake. How do you call those that it sounds like you despise to deen?
If we were having this conversation in person would your adhab be this bad? Calling me evil, ignorant, and misguided every other sentence….
I think for myself. I am not calling anyone to anything and I am certainly not blindly following anyone. Again, your making assumptions about me and you don’t know me.
We can continue an intellectual discussion, but your poor behaviour is too much.
@ Abu Usamah,
I like to think of myself as a fair person (relatively speaking–i do know, however, i have enough flaws to fill volumes). I do agree with you–wholeheartedly–that the Deen is learned by talaqi (oral transmission via isnaad to the Prophet). As the traditional scholars said: “Had it not been for isnaad, then people could have said whatever they wished about the Religion.” Believe me, in this regard, we are on the same page.
However, simply because some has–or purports to have–isnaad, doesn’t preclude that the person might be a deviant. Even an elementary student in `Aqidah–even if he doesn’t know what school of traditional `Aqidah he’s learning in–would know that the Muslims do not refer to themselves–or people at large–as the “sons” and “daughters” of Allah–even if the person attempts to ascribe some sort of ta’weel to the statement. This phrase is repulsive to the Muslim’s ears. The only thing motivating a defense of such an abhorent statement is a sense of “personality-cult” loyalty (which, ironically, is so widely condemned here). The phrase: “We can all be the ‘children of Allah’ is obviously condemned by the Qur’an and by the Sunnah.
Regarding Cheryl B. and the J-Crew, they did afterall, lay down how they would try to undermine Islam. They said that they would promote the “modernist” ideology (that would include those who are promoting “feminism” and even “homophilia” in the name of a more (allegedly) benign form of Islam. Ergo, you have the likes of outright apologists/modernists, like Irshad Manji, Aminah Wadud, and the folks over at so-called Muslim WakeUp! These extremists (as in those who advocate EXTREMELY deviant and radical positions) are considered the “darlings” of the corporate run media–and are labeled the “moderate Muslims.”
I think however, that those who would fall for the apologist-extremist hokey-doke mentioned above are relatively few. So, another way they would come at the Muslims, as stated in the “Democratic Partners” essay, is thru (pseudo) Sufism. I’m not talking about classical Islamic spirituality, as mentioned in the works of Ibn Hajar, Qadi `Iyad, Ibn `Abdeen, or As-Suyuti. I’m talking about the folks with the jacked up creeds, such as, claiming that Allah is everything and everything is Allah, or that people (allegedly) unite with Allah, or that one becomes so “pious” that he doesn’t need to pray anymore, or claiming that Sufism is the source of all religions (like, what’s in the books of Idres Shah)–or other jacked up beliefs/practices. This isn’t what An-Nawawi meant when he spoke of tasawwuf.
Now it seems that you have people who have “cloaked themselves” in the talk of classical Islamic knowledge (including tasawwuf), but their sayings simply don’t conform with what they claim to follow. However, because the mass of Muslims in the West (and not only in the West) are soooooooo ignorant of the matters of `Aqidah (not to mention Fiqh), and many people are wrapped up into personality cults, that folks are following people, who by the standards of classical Islamic scholarship, would have to be deemed deviant. These people are not as obviously deviant as Irshad and the Crew, but their poison is more subtle–and more dangerous.
We need to take all of this into consideration. And we have to bring things back to the matters of `Aqidah, and the matters of apostasy. Something very strange–especially after 9/11 is going on here, and we need to be aware of what’s happening.
With Allah is the success.
This is for those who might not be familiar with Cheryl Benard and the infamous Rand Report that Abu Usamah and i have alluded to:
http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1716/
http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/2005/MR1716.sum.pdf
Given how things are playing out here in the States, Iraq, and Afghanistan (and elsewhere), it lends some credence to some sort of CT (Conspiracy Theory).
I have much experience being around people of innovation and desires, so much so that I can almost predict the statements they’ll make when they debate, or talk about the Deen. What you don’t know is that accusing Ahlus Sunnah of having bad manners is an ancient tactic they use. Ahmed ibn Hanbal spoke about it, saying they hurl this accusation against the people of the Sunnah because they have nothing to say after they’ve been refuted; and that the Book of Allaah is a proof against them.
If you knew me, you would know that I don’t have bad manners. By the same token, the people of innovation and desires dislike that anyone point out their mistakes. They hate that the scholars of the Sunnah refute misguided speech and actions from people who oppose the Book and the Sunnah. So you attack me with with this same accusation; all because I challenged your statements and demanded proofs.
Swarth Moor
Your last proves why those of your ilk are more dangerous than the likes of Daud, because you used the truth in context then throw in the twist at the end
Yes you have spoken the truth but omitted parts to justify your stance, for example you left out that RAND corp and crew are also supporting the anti-jihadi brand of pseudo-salafi the same way they support the pseudo-sufi. At the same time they attempt to undermine traditional scholarship by using the modernist pseudo-sufi they also seek to undermine unity and leadership by using the pseudo-salafi
These pseudo-salafi either unwhitingly pawns or outright agent provoctures, by keeping up fitna and CLAIMING to speak from the scholars bait the unlearned into rejecting or even in some cases disparaging the scholars.
This now ensures that populace remains unlearned as now, they have rejected all traditional scholars and along with them NECESSARY understandings of tawheed.
These spubs alims and cut-n-paste gurus have been doing the same things for at least 13 yrs on the internet “We need the SCHOLARS” yet they don’t sit with any! “there are NO scholars in west” yet they remain in the west
damn how long does it take for them to get a plane ticket to go east and stay there LOL no I wouldn’t want them to stay there broke with the children being raised treated like crap.
Lastly
EVERY CHILD OF ADAM ERRORS!! except the massoum. Therefore if a scholar utters a suspect phrase or an ill formed idium of speech which on its face if taken literally is an afront to traditional Islamic understanding, then that scholar should be asked to make a clarification as to what he meant. That is adab!!! One should NOT immediately support such statement NOR should one immediately label a scholar a murtaddid!!!! That’s Adab And for anyone to disregard or trivalize adab as a part of this deen, pretty much tells me about their understanding of the deen
Daud
Here is an idea which may assist you, instead picking up so much experince being around the people of innovation and desires why don’t you go sit with the scholars and pick up some experince in learning Islam traditionally?
What type of person boasts about the experince he has being around ahlah bidda but refuses to mention Ulamaa he’s learned from???? there have been at least 4 to 5 names you’ve dropped to attack yet still who you’ve learned from goes unanswered
@ Abu Usamah,
I didn’t intentionally leave out anything. I spoke from what i knew (and remembered) of Benard. I do believe that the West is doing its part to incite various extremist groups–so that it (the West) can further attempt to defame “Islam” in the media. I don’t remember Benard saying that, but that may be in her longer document, which i read years ago. Even if it’s not in there, i’m wit ya on that–such radical elements would be used against Muslims (to “scare” Muslims from traditional Islam/knowledge and to increase the non-Muslim rancor for Islam).
Again, as i said to you before, you are accusing me of being something that i am not. I don’t know what “Spubs” is–although i suspect it is similar to the TROID site (i’ll google it to see). Personally, i don’t cut and paste. I didn’t teach myself Islam off the internet. I sat and learned in the Shafi`iyy school and took some classical books by talaqi/isnaad (At-Tahawiyy with lengthy eplanation and i believe (although it was years ago) Al-Ibana–i’d have to check my notes for the isnaad. I’ve taken most of Abu Shujaa`ah (and sharh), Al-Bayquniyyah, and i’ve taken other summaries/explanations in Fiqh and `Aqidah (An-Nasafiyy, for example).
If i encounter Religious cases (usually on the web) that i haven’t learned before, then i ask about them from people who have more knowledge (by talaqi) than i have. I don’t deduce Religious judgments from my Bukhari/Muslim summaries up on my shelf (instead, i read the Hadiths on people who have taken them by talaqi). This is how i was taught how one should learn, and i say humbly that one immediately sees the superiority of learning in such a methodology over “page-flippin’” and web surfin’ mode that many people are guilty of today.
My point is that being critical of people who say “we are the children of Allah” doesn’t make a person (the critical person, that is) “unorthodox” or an “extremist” from the POV of classical Islamic scholarship. Similarly being critical of pseudo-sufis doesn’t mean that one categorically condemns (genuine) tasawwuf. What i have seen is that those claiming to represent classical scholarship in the US have changed their “song and dance” considerably since 9/11. Given that the average Muslim in the West is faaaaaaaaar out of touch with classical scholarship, he has little to compare these “pretenders” to. Consequently, many Muslims in their enthusiasm to learn, and to reject radical-extremist elements, they are uncritically accepting statements of “pseudo-traditionalists” that simply can’t be reconciled with classical learning. This is a grave danger that i think few Muslims are aware of. Irshad Manji, and the “strap on crew/baby killers” at the other end of the spectrum, are relatively easy to identify; it is those who purport to adhere to the traditional sciences that will poison the Muslim masses without them being aware they are “quaffin’ the Kool Aid.”
With Allah is the success.
@ Abdul Kareem
RE: “When I was into the salafi dawah years ago a brother at my masjid told me and Tariq that he noticed that people’s behavior worsens when they study salafism. He beseeched us to not make that mistake.”
What incredibly ignorant advice this brother gave you…and to think, you and Tariq fell for it hook-line-and-sinker. He succeeded in his aim to stop you and Tariq from seeking authentic knowledge; all because of bad actions and mistakes of people who come from the worst of jaahiliyyah, and are either ignorant, and/or choose to continue to act like niggas rather than Believers. This is a disease that is wide-spread in our tribe. The Messenger of Allaah (salallaahu alayhi wa salam) said, “The best of you is the one that is patient with the harms of the people.” Why do you think he said this? Because he knew we were going to see Muslims say and do evil things; however, he warned us to be patient with it.
When you were “salafis”, who ordered you to have bad manners, or as Tariq says, “going around abusing people”!?! What scholar, past or present ordered you to behave that way!?! None of them. The scholars clarified this for us, and taught us to have good manners. They also taught us to have hikmah in knowing that there is a time for gentleness and there is also a time of harshness. If you look at the Sahaabah, who were eye-witnesses to Revelation, and the most knowledgeable of Islaam, and how they dealt with people of innovation and desires, you people would think they were extremists!!! They did not say, “O khawaarij, although you innovated the false belief that you can make takfir of people because they commit major sins; you are still our brothers in Islaam so we will overlook your misguidance, and will cooperate with you.” No, they fought Jihaad against them. You will not find the Tabi’een saying to the Qadiriyyah; “O Qadiriyyah, despite your deviate belief that Allaah does not know the actions of the people until after they do them, you are still our brothers and we will overlook your evil beliefs and cooperate with you in the areas we agree.” No, they did not do this. They refuted these people, wrote books about them, named their names, and warned the people from them. According to the stances y’all take on this blog, you people would have hated them!!! Look at what our salaf were upon:
Ibn Abbas (d. 68H, radiyallaahu anhu), “Indeed the most detestable of things to Allaah are the innovations”.
Al-Layth ibn Sa’d (d. 175H) said, “If I saw a person of desires walking upon the water, I would not accept from him.” After which Imam As-Shafi’ee (d. 204H) said, “He (Al Layth) has fallen short. If I saw him walking in the air I would not accept from him”. (rahimahumullaah)
Fudayl ibn ‘Iyaad (rahimahullaah, d. 187H) said, “Whoever sits with a person of innovation, then beware of him and whoever sits with a person of innovation has not been given wisdom. I love that there was an iron fort between me and a person of innovation. That I eat with a jew or christian is more beloved to me, than I eat with a person of innovation.”
Hammad ibn Zayd (rahimahullaah, d. 179H) said, “I was with Ayyoob, Yunus and Ibn Awn, when “Amr ibn Ubayd, who was a Mu’taziliyy passed by them and stopped and gave them Salaams—but they did not return the Salaams to him”.
Muhammad ibn Ka’b Al Qurtubee said, “Do not sith with the people of Qadr (the Qadiryyah), and do not argue with them. And when Hammaad ibn Salamah used to sit in a gathering, he would say, “Whoever is a Qadariyy, then let him get up and leave”. Something similar to this is reported about At Tawoos, Ayyoob, Sulayman At Taymee, Yunus ibn ‘Ubayd and others. Al Qaadee said, “And this is Ijmaa’ (consensus) of the Sahaabah (radiyyallaahu anhum) and the Taabi’een (rahimahumullaah) i.e. regarding fleeing from the people of innovation”.
I guess you all would have hated these people, and called them cultists, and extremists—and they were from the imams of the tabi’een!
@Daud
More cut-N-paste that’s why you were banned previously, it sickens me how you impune the character of our past great scholars by ignorantly misquoting them. In every work by every scholar I’ve been instructed on they indicated from whom they immediately took. Time after time you post these uncontextualized “broken chain” narrations, claiming to profess love for the scholars yet your ignorant displays belittle their legagcy. From whom are you taking Your version and translations of these narrations? Which scholar have you sat with that has instructed you in this manner? There are know secret or hidden isnaad in Islam. Isnaad is the protection for the Ummah.
I pray and plead that the other readers don’t take your rantings serious!!!
To my Brother and Sisters run to the scholars that’s where we will find the nectar of this deen and you will know it because it will chime with your natural fitra, ALL humans are born upon this and Allah makes Muslims. You don’t need to pass some unvarified “broken chain” litmus test to verify your Islam. Love the upright scholars NOT venal, and Love the just Ameers, the Ameer doesn’t have to be the most knowledgeable to lead the community but he has to be willing to take from the most knowledgeable
RE: “More cut-N-paste that’s why you were banned previously, it sickens me how you impune the character of our past great scholars by ignorantly misquoting them.”
Don’t talk smack!! Bring your PROOF that I misquoted any scholar. I’m probably the only one even cites scholars on this blog. Bring your proof, or shut your mouth!!!!!!!!!!
RE: “…you will know it because it will chime with your natural fitra…” This statement is not a proof for anything! Agreement with the book of Allaah and the Prophetic Sunnah is where the proofs lie.
Who from the scholars has preceded you with this statement!?!
back to the thrust of the original post or at least how I see it
Around the world Obama’s campaigne and election has stired an awakening among the descendants of the African diaspora. They are now begining to excert themselves and the mass media is now trying to co-opt and subdue it. Let me explain Inside and outside the Muslim world there are segregated pockets or ghettoes where descendants of Africans live in deplorable conditions. In Saudi, Yemen, India, Iraq, Palestine and Gaza you name it and there is a destitute Black community. Now insipired by Obama (wrongly or correctly) they are fighting for their rights.
The media doesn’t want this to happen but since they can’t silence it they try to undermine the Islamic under current by ALWAYS mentioning “syncretic Islam” which they KNOW will feed the fitna mongers they encourage. Ever notice how one never hears of “syncretic judaism” or “syncretic christianity”. The mass media throws theology in the mix because they can count on the psuedo-salafi they employ to respond
Muslims are the only people who believe that their religion can unite people from all different cultures. This has to be one of the biggest ignorant madness in the history of mankind.
Get off the nonsense, Islam is incapable of entering foecefully into the Western world. It belongs to the Eastern world, the same way Hinduism has never left India. Islam was only able to pass the Arab world because force and brutality was used to conquer non-Arabs . Islam is an Arab religion and not a universal one.
Marisol,
The largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia. Indonesia is in the “Far East,” so to speak. The Muslims–Arabs or otherwise–did not invade Indonesia. East Africa and West Africa became Muslim at large not by Muslim military conquest, but by peaceful conversion. The disbelieving Mongols, who devastated large portions of the Islamic world, like Bukhara and Baghdad, many of them later embraced Islam and further spread the Religion of God. In spite of their military domination of Muslims, they Mongols saw the truth in Tawheed (the belief in the Incomparable Creator) and became Muslims.
Islam is spreading in the US–according to statistics about 10% of African-Americans call themselves Muslim. Islam was never forcibly imposed upon black Americans. The issue is that sincere seekers of all ethnic groups and nations who yearn to know the purpose of their existence, by the guidance of God become Muslims. There is One Perfect Eternal Creator Who absolutely does not need or resemble anything. You and i are going to die. The highest human objective is to obey the One Who created us, and this is the beginning of any discussion about right and wrong morality and ethics–or why Islam is spreading all over the face of the Earth.
With Allah is the success.
swarthmoor.wordpress.com
Also, Marisol,
The West, like all empires is bound to fall. We see it crumbling today. The outward facade is there, but when people can’t even define what marriage is, it should be all to clear that such a “civilization” is on the ropes. The Western (i.e., white European) population is shrinking in its own homeland. Multiculturalism, white guilt, feminism, and now, fagophilia, have undermined any unity of purpose that the West once had. Furthermore, you can sustain only the most crude, barbaric, and debauched part of the populace on McDonald’s, Walmart, Budweiser, and the Playboy Channel.
Some folks are going to desire something more substantial than 40 year mortgages that they can’t pay on Dollar Store wages. Some folks can see that silly pagan doctrines can’t satisfy the thinking person–and materialism and atheism are at their core also based upon absurdities and delusions that a child can discredit. Some folks want to know the TRUTH about the One Perfect, Eternal, Incomparable Creator Who created them and everything else–and they want to know what will happen to them after they die. Islam offers humanity that, and man-made religions and secular humanism does not. This is why Islam is spreading and will continue to spread. Furthermore, it has been written, and the ink did dry.
Swarth Moor,
You are fooling yourselves believing that Islam is spreading. I am from Latin America and Muslims there, many who are immigrants, are freely assimilalting into the Latin culture.They understand they can be Muslims and live freely with others. Educated Muslims in the West will not forfeit their freedom and happy lives for ignorance.
Many enlightened Muslims in the West are not afraid of non-Muslims. No one in the West is going to accept slavery and backwardness. The West is not going to accept doctrines that put women behind the veil.
Westeners understand that women play a vital role in civilization. Enlightened and civilized women produce men and women who advance humanity. The West is transforming and leaping into higher areas. because of its rich diversity
The Muslim world is not going anywhere because it is too afraid of life and progress.
Fear is something that must be eradicated from the minds of men and women because it is a product of ignorance and superstition.
The Muslim world is also crumbling, but I see no solid and tangible transformation. Killing people because they are different is not of God.
A Supreme Universal God does not need members of his Creation to destroy what he has created to please Him.
A supreme God is not afraid of His Creation. A Supreme God with Love has Faith and Trust that His Creation with His Help will someday Understand Him.
The Creator Will Never Accept Humans who Kill to please Him.There is no need for that.
Try to understand the Supreme God. He does not need us for anything.We Need Him. God makes the Sun shine on everyone. This is God’s Creation not ours.
Be Careful.
Religion cannot unite humanity only, the Creator can. God knows how evil the heart of man is. There is no unity in this world.
There is heavy divisions among Muslims. Divisions between Shiites and Sunnis.They have not lift a finger to help other Muslims who suffer in a progressive manner.
Rememeber the war between Iranians and Iraquis. African and Asian Muslims who travel to rich Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Dubai are treated like dirt.
There will never be unity among Muslims because Jehovah God knows that is a dangerous thing.
The very Arab Muslims are enslaving African Muslims in Sudan , Mauritania and Senegal.
Stop fooling yoursel.God will not be mocked with lies.
May The One And Only Supreme One,Elohim, the God of Love and Compassion-Jehovah Shalom, Jehovah Nissi, Jehoavah El Shaddai Blesses You.
Religion cannot unite humanity only the Creator can.
Mariso Cusatti
You all are ridiculous talking as if you have all the knowledge in the world and yet in truth know very little. It’s not so much this post that is awful as it is people’s void pride that made it such.
@ indigoblu
The problem is that some people try to justify mistreating other people by any and all means and preach and look down their nose to those who reject such a dogma. I simply posted this to show the racism against a particular people and some came in and said that these people deserve their treatment.
@Marisol,
I thank you for your comments but and while superfcially true lack depth for accuracy. You claim that Islam can not unify, yet which congregation of any faith on Saturday or Sunday which offers more diversity than the Masjid on Friday?
Agree that many despots ruling the Muslim lands but they exist at the behest of the leaders in the West who exploit their natural resources. You say you are from Latin America, Yet industial America has exploited you land for a century, sugar cane, rubber, oil not to mention inducing Latin America to becoming the drug producers to the world.
Yes, Critical Thinking is required in the Muslim world, but with critical thinking comes the awareness that you are being exploited. The Muslim world as a whole is rich in natural resources which the ALL the economies in the West benefit from being able to exploit
You mention the Iraq and Iran war, this was a war encouraged, induced and supported by the West. Saddam was their GUY! That same psuedo-salafi that keep up disunity in the Muslim world are same ones who support the pupets of the West who rule in the Muslim world.
Pride? Talking about God’s love and hope for humanity is not pride.
Believing that human beings can transform ourselves is wishful thinking and ugly pride. This is one world and one humanity.
God created one human race.
It is the fear of life and of “others” that draw many of you to believe you have to destroy to transform.
God is the only one who can transform us.
The truth scares you, so you conclude it is not knowledge.
You should ask yourselves:
Why so many Muslims are angry and lead miserable lives ?
Why so many are interested in committing suicide?
Why are there so many depressed and unhappy people in the Muslim World?
True spirituality is supposed to lead to peace, love, compassion,forgiveness, patience and happiness?
Why so much madness and anger? Think about it.
Believing that we have all truth when we are miserable and unhappy means something is wrong. There is nothing wrong with self analysis and self criticism.
Even The Almighty Supreme God of Creation said:
“Try me?”
The answer:
“Let God be found true even if man is found a liar”.
Marisol Cusatti
Abu Usamah-al-Aswad:
Let us not fool ourselves here. People from different cultures praying together in one place is a mere superficial semblance of unity.
Unity means people working together all the time everywhere for the good of the collective.
Latin America and the entire world is in a mess because we have moved away from God.
Everyone has contributed to the mess.
It is simple minded to continue blaming the United States and Europe today when so many countries in the developing world have been independent for a long time.
I criticize my own world for its mistakes.
All I have to say is that Islam is incapable of uniting people from different cultures for a common good.
Christianity has not been able to do it either. But Christians understand that and they have stopped trying. Sooner or later Muslims will get it .
No organized religion can unite different cultures because the Creator is against it. Mankind is incapable of handling that one. It is a complete biggie that is over our heads.
Individulas around the globe, who truly love God and want to serve Him, if they are sincere and honest should worship God in truth and spirit and let God take it from there.Stop trying to unite. God is the only One who can Unite Us.
This is my last post.
And May the God of the Creation Bless Each and Every One of you Fully for the Good of His Creation
Marisol Cusatti
Marisol,
If it is truth you seek then look to Islam NOT Muslims. ALL children of Adam error, so investigate the law (Quran and Sunnah) and not those who flaunt it. You don’t judge a law on the basis of those who flaunt it but those who adhere to it.
Oppression breeds societal misery. How can you speak of suicide and depression in the Muslim World when anti-depressant drugs and psyco-therapy are multi-billion dollar industries in the West. What percentage of children are on prozac or some other psyco-drug?
Please research the true spread of Islam you will find that it was sprituality, the mercy and love of Allah which caused Islam to spread outside Arabia, not war
Marisol
the primary call of Islam has always been tawheed first, and so-called religious plualism is not endorsed by Islam, however this new founded “hate first” approach to non-muslims is newly invented matter, again which finds its origins in those exploit the Muslims on behalf of the West.
But thanks to blogs like Tariq’s critical thinking amongst the Muslims is coming to the forefront
@ Marisol,
For sure there are plenty of (ignorant) immigrant Muslims who sell their souls to be assimilated into Western society. They are almost without exception ignorant of the Religion and suffer from deep seated inferiority complexes. Such people aren’t a standard to judge by. Furthermore, there MANY are secularly educated people in the West who are embracing Islam.
Marisol, we all know how “liberated” and “equal” the Western woman is. Is she liberated to walk around topless in public? Actually, if the woman doesn’t “hijaab” (veil) her chest, she goes to jail (so much for freedom). Men don’t go to jail for walking around topless. I don’t see any women playing in the NFL (National Football League) or NHL, or NBA, or even in the non-contact sport of Major League Baseball. What about the military–or the fire departments? Women are treated unequally–BY LAW! Marisol, they even build separate (and unequal) prisons for women. I don’t see the equality and equal treatment, Marisol. And do you know why? Because the West does not believe in “equality” of the sexes. “Equality” is just another one of those amorphous slogans thrown around by the West, like “freedom” and “democracy.”
Regarding what you call “enlightened” “educated” women–i’m assuming you mean those who sit in corporate dominated institutions called “colleges” and as often as not get turned into sleezy drunken indoctrinated female who can’t raise a functional family. Islam is straightforward and honest: men are men and women are women… and women are grateful for that. It is God–not the Rockerfeller Foundation–who knows what is best for the both of the sexes and what is best for the family and the society.
ON LIFE AND PROGRESS
Muslims do not fear life–but we are clear about the reality of death. You will die become food for the worms. That’s a fact. Any society that is not keenly aware of that fact is living in a delusion–like the West, for instance. “Progress” is another one of those empty words from the secular lexicon. “Progress” means that there is a well defined goal–and that one is making advancements in that direction. Secularism has no ultimate objective (instead, its objectives are constantly shifting; hence, without a clearly defined goal, mere change itself cannot be defined as “progress”). BTW, don’t say that “progress” means to make everyone free–for that DEFINITELY can’t be the case when governments keep MAKING MORE AND MORE LAWS that if you don’t obey, you LOSE your freedom and property. And regarding “equality,” we already covered that. The secularist humanist certainly don’t consider Rigoberta Menchu and the so-called Mother Theresa equal to Hitler. People are NOT equal.
OF GOD
Muslims believe that God (Allah) does not need anything–and we understand that correctly and categorically. Other folks do not. Certainly Allah does not need us to obey Him (no gender intended). Allah knows everything. Allah is the One who creates the understanding and guidance in some people and creates the misunderstanding and misguidance in others. Allah did not will for everyone to believe in Him or to obey Him.
Regarding the Orders of Allah, you have no clear idea what is accepted or rejected by the Creator. You are speaking from your opinion–an opinion that has obviously been molded by trends of 20th/21st century thought. Allah ordered Muslims to pray–not because He needs our worship. Allah ordered us to fight (in just wars–not terrorism)–not because he needs to be protected. The commands and prohibitions of the Creator are known via Divine Revelation and not human opinion, for the human intellect alone has no idea what will be to its benefit or detriment in the Hereafter.
OF UNITY
Unity first and foremost is based on sharing love for the One Who created and owns us. People need to believe in the Creator correctly–and not ascribe to Allah what does not befit the Oneness and Perfection of the Eternal and Incomparable Creator of the universe. Our devotion to Allah should be the greatest priority in a person’s life. Without that, there can be no genuine unity. We (Muslims) know that we will not become united until the time of the Mahdi. We know that the Muslims will become increasingly weak and ignorant until his appearance. He will fight against your globalist buddies, and then Jesus will return and slay the Dajjal (a man who claims Godhood for himself–and will be the leader of a globalist system). Then, later during the life of Jesus HUMANITY WILL BE UNITED UNDER THE RELIGION OF ISLAM. One of the advantges of being a Muslim, Mari, is that we know how the script is going to play out, and we know that the good guys (and gals) ultimately win–if not in this life, then in the Hereafter.
P.S. You say that fear needs to be eradicated, for it is an impediment to progress. Actually, fear–taqwaa, fear of God–is THE BEGINNING OF HUMAN progress and reformation.
With Allah is the success.
@ Abu Aswad,
I know that you don’t care for me very much, and you think i am something i am not, and i do understand that what you said was meant to be polite with Marisol, but we do not “thank” someone for making kufri statements. This issue–i.e., the baab of riddah (section on apostasy) which these quasi-traditionalists are ignoring (and concealing from the masses)–is not something to take lightly. The (genuine) traditional Imams of Ahl-us-Sunnah, like An-Nawawi (in Rawdat at-Talibin) and Qadi `Iyad (in Ash-Shifa) wrote extensively on the issue of matters (beliefs, actions, and sayings) which result in apostasy.
Many people nowadays have not learned this issue. And as a result, fall under the saying of the Prophet:
“A person would say a word he thinks is harmless, but causes him to fall into Fire the depth between the East and the West.”
So please let us guard our tongues and HOW we say things, so we don’t place ourselves in trouble on the Day of Rising.
Daud,
It’s evident that you have no idea what my perspective is and I won’t take the time to explain in this forum. I too know how salafis respond to certain arguments. I don’t blindly follow the salafi minhad (not insinuating that you do either) so you’ll probably just call me ignorant anyway.
I wish their were more scholars and students of knowledge in America to learn from. But, if they were calling us to consulting them for every single decision in our lives, then we’d just end up backwards and stagnant just like the rest muslim world.
No sympathy for people in Gaza; even if some of them are BLACK Palestinian Natives
Look carefully next time you watch the news and notice the crowd.
@ Gess
Why don’t you actually look carefully at the entire site before you post?
If you mean the NPR (Neo-con Public Radio) article, I did Tariq. And please read my previous comment. I just wondering why would someone choose selective racism or genocides. It is the selektivisme I am referring to here.
I’m a lover of football, just wish it was played all year round, thanks for posting such a good article. I’ll be back to read often now.
Dave