Jack Kemp’s Letter To His Grandchildren

65 Responses to “Jack Kemp’s Letter To His Grandchildren”

Halima Nur, on May 4th, 2009 at 7:49 am Said:

What he should has strived for was accepting “tawheed” and telling them how great Allah is. What’s with all this love for the kuffar. Every man, women, child has a right to be treated like a decent human being. He said nothing new. More than any success on this earth is “living within the folds of Islam” and accepting the oneness of Allah(swt).

What’s with all the Muslims loving the non-Muslims, yet, hate the words of the Muslims who would love to live and establish tawheed.

Jack Kemp heard about Prophet Mohammed(saaws) and was so full of pride, he died not believing in Allah(swt). What’s this Muslims in America. Is “Democrazy” your religion?

Strange and Strangeness is truly a fact. It’s strange good pious Muslims die everyday, yet, we say nothing about them. We don’t read about them and what they wanted for the next generation of Muslims. What strangeness is this today to see Muslims quoting words of someone dying outside the folds of Tawheed. What’s strange is Muslims defending these enemies of Allah(swt) as if their speech is like a bad spell or magic upon them.

Well Jack Kemp grandchildren; Allah is Akbar! No glory to anyone or nation who rejects Allah(swt) and dies rejecting Allah(swt).

(3:85) “If anyone of you desires a religion other than Islam it will never be accepted of him.”

“But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads (22:19);

Ya Muslims, to whom is your allegience? Where is your love and hate for the sake of Allah(swt)? Do you stand and help a man who job is to help and assist the enemies of Islam and the Muslims? Do you not have fear of Allah(swt)? Do you want to raise with these non believers on the day of judgement? Ya Muslims it’s no glory except the glory of Allah(swt).

And when We decide to destroy a town (population), We (first) send a definite order (to obey Allah and be righteous) to those among them (or We (first) increase in number those of its population) who are given the good things of this life. Then, they transgress therein, and thus the word (of torment) is justified against it (them). Then We destroy it with complete destruction. (EMQ al-Israa’, 17:16)
Tariq Nelson, on May 4th, 2009 at 8:04 am Said:

You’re right Halima. I’ll be sure to go piss on his grave when they bury him like I’m supposed to do
Abu, on May 4th, 2009 at 8:30 am Said:

Jazaakallaahu khairan Dear sister Halima. It was truly inspiring.
sister in Islam, on May 4th, 2009 at 9:48 am Said:

It makes me sad and sorry to see how Islam has become in the eyes of muslims a message full of hatred and cruelty instead of mercy and kindness .
When wisdom and truth are spoken we should acknowledge them and appreciate them regardless of who has spoken them , because truth and good values deserve to be upheld on their own .
Halima Nur, on May 4th, 2009 at 10:42 am Said:

I found this statement from the Prophet Mohammed(saaws).

In the grave, two angels, who are charged with questioning, come to him and ask him what he used to believe in this world, who was his Lord, what was his religion and who was his Prophet. If he gives a correct answer, that saves him, but if he does not answer them they inflict a severe and painful beating on him.

The Messenger of Allaah said: ‘The grave is the first of the stages of the Hereafter; whoever is saved from it, what comes afterwards will be easier for him, but if he is not saved from it, what comes afterwards will be worse for him.’” And the Messenger of Allaah said: “I have never seen any scene but the grave is more frightening than it.” [At-Tirmithi]

So Tariq…I didn’t read anything about pissing on a grave. If you have a link, post it here, if you are upset with my words. Sorry, it’s not my words but the words of Allah(swt) and The Prophet Mohammed(saaws) so if you have a problem take it up with them.

Sister in Islam…Islam isnt about feeling, it’s about truth, even if it’s against oneself. I don’t get your point at all. Oh, yes I do. The Prophet Mohammed told us about that also.

In the last day if a man speaks the truth, he will be taken as a liar. If he is a liar, he will be known as truthful. So, when a man reminds one today of Allah(swt) words from Quran; it will be seen by some people as cruel and hateful. Okay, I understand you now. I quoted from Quran and the Quran is Haqq.

It’s funny in the sense that’s it sad, how many Muslims think “calling gays “bad and evil” is in itself bad. We are all equal right? all gays are not bad right?

The first word and truth is “Ash Hadu-an la Ilaha Illallah Wah-Dahu la Sharika Lahu wa Ash-Hado Anna Mohammadun Abduhu wa Rasuluh.”
(I bear witness to the fact that there is no God but Allah. He is alone and there is no partner unto Him, and that I bear witness to the fact that Mohammad is His servant and Prophet.)

No other person can give us something better then this!!!!

O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end. S. 4:59

And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest. S. 33:36

So, these are the words of Allah(swt) and if you can’t take it and you need the sunnah of someone else. It’s on you. I never said “piss” on his grave, but anyway thanks for giving me some of your blessings for today.

What is asabiyyah? “therefore let all of us strive to help him be a successful president, so as to help make America an even greater nation.”

What about let’s working with other nations. What’s this pride for greatness from Americans? lol! Really? Is America great now? LOL! Allah is Akbar! His words in the Quran is great! Any nation or people who submit to Allah(swt) is great! It’s nothing greater.
Harold, on May 4th, 2009 at 11:34 am Said:

Halima, I take it that you are either not in America or are desperately making preparations to get out as soon as possible.
sister in Islam, on May 4th, 2009 at 11:03 pm Said:

Halima,
The Qora’n describes sending the prophet (pbuh) as an act of Mercy to all the worlds.
And in surat Ta-Ha , Allah (swt) asks Moses and Haroon to address the greatest symbol of Kufr with kind words :
Go, both of you, unto Pharaoh. Lo! he hath transgressed (the bounds). (43) And speak unto him a gentle word, that peradventure he may heed or fear. (44)
Your harsh and hostile da3wah to Islam is the best present you can give to the enemies of Islam who want nothing more than your aggressive and antagonistic approach to enhance Islamphobia.

You are distorting the peacfull image of Islam and adding more harm and repulsion to Islam .
The prophet warned of people like you whom he called them ” munafireen” i.e Repellants to Religion.

In Qora’n Allah mentiones that He could have forced everyone to be a believer but didn’t ,and opted to make us free to choose - Surit Hud :
And if thy Lord had willed, He verily would have made mankind one nation, yet they cease not differing, (118)

Again , the prophet ( pbuh) described his mission as being sent to enhance Makarim al akhlaq i.e : encourage and enhance the noble and refine behaviour of mankind . So hatred and ruthlessness are difnitely don’t fall into the categoray of Makrim al akhlaq my dear sister.
Halima Nur, on May 5th, 2009 at 2:11 am Said:

Again , the prophet ( pbuh) described his mission as being sent to enhance Makarim al akhlaq i.e : encourage and enhance the noble and refine behaviour of mankind .

So hatred and ruthlessness are difnitely don’t fall into the categoray of Makrim al akhlaq my dear sister.

That’s why Allah commanded us in “The Holy Quran” and not my words, but the words of Allah(swt).

In Surah 9:123: O ye who believe! fight such of the disbelievers as are near to you and let them find HARDNESS in you; and know that ALLAH is with the righteous.

quran 98.6 - Verily, those who disbelieve from among the People of the Book and the idolaters, will be in the Fire of Hell, abiding therein. “THEY ARE THE WORST OF CREATURES” Did I write this are did Allah(swt) revealed this? Do you doubt this are you calling Allah(swt) a liar?

quran 28.86 - And you were not expecting that the Book (this Qur’an) would be sent down to you, but it is a mercy from your Lord. So “never be a supporter of the disbelievers.” Again, are you better than Allah(swt) he said “NEVER” support the disbelievers.

Do you want to dispute the words of Allah(swt)?

I think Allah(swt) everyday for the “hardness Muslims showed me back in the days. They didn’t show me love when we were partying all the time, drinking, going to night clubs, having children out of wedlock, dressing like hookers. No, the Muslims I was around “frowned upon” this behavior. They never let me and my friends think this was acceptable just so we wouldnt be upset with them. They never put Allah(swt) anger before our friendship. Yes, to the non-believers it seems harsh. We would always ask what they did for fun. It’s no fun in associating partners and doing whatever you like to Allah(swt). Alhamdullilah for those Muslims. Where are they today? Now, the Muslims are “oh, don’t say this about the kuffar” Oh, don’t make the kuffar upset and have them think of us as terrorist. Wow! They make Allah(swt) angry everyday with their kufr. Who is more important to the Muslims today? The kuffars or Allah(swt)? Do we have issues with submitting totally to Allah(swt) or do we love kufr also?

I’m giving you verses from Quran. I’m not making up these verses. If you have problems. It’s with Allah(swt). Not me. Do you consider these words from Quran cruel?
Halima Nur, on May 5th, 2009 at 2:21 am Said:

Harold said:
Harold, on May 4th, 2009 at 11:34 am Said:

Halima, I take it that you are either not in America or are desperately making preparations to get out as soon as possible.

I suggest you read this and stop with the non sense questions. I can say what I want about America. I’m not a blind follower, if America does wrong, it does. I have no love for anything if it’s wrong. Even if it’s my own Mother and Father. Allah(swt) comes first always to me.

Now here i’ll leave you with this. I think if you are smart you would get what I’m saying. Why should I leave or plan to leave here?

18th century British colonies in the Southern US encouraged the Cherokees, Chickasaws, Choctaws, Creeks and Seminoles to own black slaves. 4 Some of these nations, notably the Seminoles, also took in escaped slaves and refused to give them up when whites came demanding the return of fugitive slaves. In 1750, slavehunters were sent to retrieve a slave living in the Creek Nation. A Creek chief stood between them and the black man, cut their rope and threw it in the fire. The posse returned empty-handed. 5
In the 19th century, a number of high ranking Seminoles married black wives - Chief Osceola was one of them. It was said that 52 of his 55 body guards were black. Seminole King Philip too had a black son John Philip, half brother to Chief Wild Cat. King Philip, Chief Osceola and Wild Cat were key figures in the 2nd Seminole war between the US and the Seminole Nation.10 The US General Sidney Jesup apparently saw the mixing of blacks and Indians in the Seminole Nation as a threat: “… the 2 races … are identified in interests and feelings…Should the Indians remain in this territory, the negroes among them will form a rallying point for runaway negreos from adjacent states.”11

Today, there are large numbers of black Americans of Native American ancestry.
Black Indians: An American Story

Black Indians: An American Story is a distinguished documentary which presents the rarely-told story of the racial fusion of Native and African-Americans.

So why should I make plans to leave? For all the Native Americans who complain about America, should they be ask if they are leaving too? Do we not need to hear their stories and hardships? Where do you suggest the Native Americans go?
Harold, on May 5th, 2009 at 5:22 am Said:

Halima,

Why? Because you hate non-Muslims and there are plenty of Muslim countries for you to go to. Many Muslims who hate America have left. Why would you stay in a place amongst people you hate?

And why are you presenting the story of kufaar as your proof? I thought people like you hated non-Muslims now you are using them as proof oppression? Can’t have it both ways Halima
sister in Islam, on May 5th, 2009 at 9:22 am Said:

Halima,
First,it’s unthinkable for a true believer to dispute the words of Allah .
We share the same goals , the same sincere desire to abide by our faith , to please our creator , to live with our families a virtuous and successful life .

The prophet (pbuh) urged us in the hadeeth to strive and improve the quality of our lives as if we were destined to live for ever , and at the same time to strive and attain piety and good deeds as if we were destined to die tomorrow .
This reveals the ingenuity of our prophet’s teachings by stressing the importance of achieving a good balance between the now and the hereafter .
When we as muslims stay connected with the peoples of the world , preserving our identity and way of life whiteout alienating ourselves completely ,we are establishing this balance and following his teachings .
Your stand as a muslim should be very clear about all the sinful acts you mentioned but your influence and power to change those around you is best achieved by good example and a kind word of advice .
The prophet (pbuh) urged us to resort to gentleness in all our acts by saying that whenever
gentleness is applied in any act it beautifies it and whenever it’s taken out of any act it distorts it.
Islam has been willingly embraced by many peoples when they witnessed the ethics of the muslim traders . Their virtue and honesty opened the hearts of those people and won them over .

As for the Hardness mentioned in the Qoranik verse , there are many appropriate times of showing it- when we confront the enemy in war , we should show hardness . when we are attacked , we should show hardness. But also , when you live firmly by your belief , you are showing hardness .
So hardness doesn’t mean being an angry and a hostile person to all non -muslims at all times .
As they say in arabic : To every occasion there is an appropriate speech.

Your love of Islam and zealousness shouldn’t prevent you from giving credit when it’s due ( in this case the Jack kemps’ letter ) and recognize and admire an objective stand and a piece of wisdom without feeling that you are betraying your religion.
Actually, there is a hadeeth that says that the believer is always seeking the Truth, and when he finds it, he accepts it regardless of it’s source .
Aboo Abdillaah U, on May 5th, 2009 at 9:41 am Said:

I will NEVER praise a people after Allaah has debased and humiliated them
patb, on May 5th, 2009 at 1:59 pm Said:

What pitiful comments
Swarth Moor, on May 6th, 2009 at 9:08 am Said:

Maa’ Sha’ Allah,

There is a lot of confusion on this issue. It is important that it is clear in every Muslim’s mind that the mukallaf (legally accountable) disbeliever is condemned to Hell forever. It needs to said simplly and straightforwardly. And it must be clear in the Muslim’s mind that Muslims do not love disbelievers. Muslims can CARE for disbelievers–that is, wish for what is good for them. And the best that the disbeliever can have is Islam. Hence, we should call kaafirs to the belief in the Oneness and Perfection of Allah and the belief in Prophet Muhammad. This is how we show our concern for those who are not Muslim.

Sadly, because of the ignorance of many calling themselves Muslims, it seems that to state facts from the basics of Islamic doctrine is “extreme.” Like what was said, one needs to be clear about the judgments pertaining to the kaafir, such as, the torture in the grave, torture in Sijjin, the suffering on Judgment Day, and being tormented in Hell forever. These are the facts of the matter, and if we care about the non-Muslims, then we should spend more of our time calling kaafirs to Islam (after we ourselves have understood the basics of the Islamic Creed).

Now after agreeing upon the status of the disbeliever, THEN we can talk about different approaches in making da`wah. For some people, the Prophet called them to Islam with kindness and gentleness. Some were called to Islam through intellectual arguments. Some were called to Islam by reminding them of the reality of death and the torture of Hell. Some were told about the bounties of Paradise. Other people were called to Islam after the swords were brandished. Different circumstances, different people, different methods of da`wah.

The reason why some people take such a seemingly “hardline” position is that they have seen what ignoramuses, like the so-called Warith Deen Mohmmed, have propagated about the status of the kaafir. If people calling themselves Muslims were clear about the condition of the kaafir, then there would not be a need to always talk about them being tortured in Hell forever in the Hereafter. However, when you have apologists and swindlers claiming that the kaafirs will find salvation if they are “good people” (which is an oxymoron), then we need to establish FOR THE MUSLIMS and PRESERVATION OF THE ISLAMIC DOCTRINE that the kaafir is condemned to Hell forever.

Lastly, for Jack Kemp, the tragedy there is that the man died as a kaafir. He is off to a torture that will never end. Every Muslim agrees upon that. There nothing that can be done for him; however, we can call his family members and others to Islam, and invite them to save themselves from the suffering that does not cease.

With Allah is the success.

swarthmoor.wordpress.com
fairuza, on May 7th, 2009 at 8:32 am Said:

Oh my goodness gracious sakes, Tariq.

I just finished reading these comments and now feel like my head is splitting in two.

How you deal with this everyday….I haven’t a clue.

You must eating your Wheaties.
fairuza, on May 7th, 2009 at 8:34 am Said:

Ooops, should have said:

You must BE eating your Wheaties.

And I need to go fetch me some coffee….LOL
rwsmarts, on May 7th, 2009 at 11:55 am Said:

sister in Islam,

You posted:
In Qora’n Allah mentiones that He could have forced everyone to be a believer but didn’t ,and opted to make us free to choose - Surit Hud :
And if thy Lord had willed, He verily would have made mankind one nation, yet they cease not differing, (118)

It seems that you do not understand this verse. We all have a will. However, this will is under the control of Allah. If some rejects Islam, this is what Allah willed for him or her. Allah willed for some to be muslim and some to be non believers.
Allah said in Surat at-Takwir,29 which means: [ You do not will anything unless Allah, the Lord of the words, wills.] This is a proof that we have a will that is under the control of Allah. Out of His generosity, Allah guides, protects from sinning, and gives help to whoever He willed. Out of His justice, He creates misguidance, enables one to sin, and inflicts with calamities whomever He willed. Good and evil, obedience and sinning, and blasphemy and disbelief are alike in that all of them occur by the Will of Allah, His Knowledge, and Creating.

Abu Dawud related tht the messanger of Allah
said: <>
If someone chooses not to be muslim then this is what Allah eternally willed for him or her.

If someone calling himself or herself a muslim believes that we create our own actions, then such a person is not a muslim. Anyone who believes they have a will that is not under the contol of Allah is a kaafir. Such a person needs to reject this blasphemous belief and say the two shahadahs(Testification of Faith).
rwsmarts, on May 7th, 2009 at 12:34 pm Said:

Praise be to Allah

You people should stop rushing to defend these kaafirs. It is an obligation to hate their blasphemy. Telling people that every accountable person who does not embrace Islam will be TORTURED IN HELL FOREVER is not being extreme. This is simply the truth.

If this Jack Kemp fellow heard the call to Islam before he died and rejected it. Then he will be tortured in hell FOREVER. It doesn’t matter if he was christian that performed many good deeds in this life. On the Day Of Judgement the accountable kaafir will have no good deeds to be weighed. They will only have bad deeds.

Subhanahu wa ta^ala
Thersites, on May 7th, 2009 at 4:40 pm Said:

“IAnyone who believes they have a will that is not under the contol of Allah is a kaafir.”
If that is so,then logically they can only do this if Allah wills that they do it.

“It is an obligation to hate their blasphemy. Telling people that every accountable person who does not embrace Islam will be TORTURED IN HELL FOREVER is not being extreme.”
Again,they will only do this if Allah wills that they do it. It isn’t extreme, by the standards of muslims. However, whether it is true or not, it is a vile and monstrous belief that people will do things by the will of Allah and Allah will then torture them for ever for doing what they had no choice but to do because Allah willed it.
Swarth Moor, on May 7th, 2009 at 10:20 pm Said:

Thersites,

There is nothing wrong with recognizing the ONENESS of God. There is ONE Creator, Who is the Creator of everything and does not need or resemble anything. What is wrong is for PEOPLE to do what THEY ARE NOT ENTITLED TO DO. God, the ONE Who owns everything is entitled to do whatever He wills (no gender intended). Humans–since they are owned by God–are NOT entitled to do whatever they will. God is not obligated to give us a morsel of food, a sip of water, or a breath of air. God is not obligated to guide people to Islam. God alone is the Creator–God does whatever He wills.

Whatever God grants, it is out of God’s Generosity and Mercy. God is NOT OBLIGATED to do anything–however, we, human beings, are OBLIGATED to obey God. This is the reality of human existence. Some (humans) do take heed and some don’t–and the wise take lessons from both.

With Allah is the success.
rwsmarts, on May 7th, 2009 at 10:32 pm Said:

Thersites,

In brief, we are the slaves of Allah. We are the property of Allah. He does with us whatever he wills.

Praise be to Allah
Thersites, on May 7th, 2009 at 10:57 pm Said:

“What is wrong is for PEOPLE to do what THEY ARE NOT ENTITLED TO DO. ”

“In brief, we are the slaves of Allah. We are the property of Allah. He does with us whatever he wills.”…including deciding whether we will do what we are not entitled to do.
yaddiya, on May 7th, 2009 at 11:46 pm Said:

it’s responses like Halima’s that have made me totally, pretty much, isolate myself from the Muslim community. it’s like this one way track of mind… it’s horrible.
Swarth Moor, on May 8th, 2009 at 8:02 am Said:

Thersites,

What you said is the matter in a nutshell. You certainly didn’t create your brain and heart. Since you cannot come to grips with the reality of how your mind works, then you didn’t create your thinking process. And for sure, you didn’t created guidance in yourself. It is from people, such as yourself, that the wise and intelligent take lessons on HOW NOT TO behave in regards to their Creator. The fools, of course, learn nothing.

With Allah is the success.
Daud, on May 8th, 2009 at 8:40 am Said:

@ Yaddiya

The Messenger of Allaah (salallaahu alayhi wa salam) said in an authentic hadith,

“The best of you is those who mix with the people and endure the harms”.

If you separate yourself from the people, you are a lost sheep amongst the wolves. There is nothing praiseworthy in removing yourself from the believers, regardless of their errors. You should be ashamed.
Thersites, on May 8th, 2009 at 1:08 pm Said:

” It is from people, such as yourself, that the wise and intelligent take lessons on HOW NOT TO behave in regards to their Creator. The fools, of course, learn nothing.”

The wise and intelligent learn nothing too. They merely do what god decides they will do.
HalimaNur, on May 8th, 2009 at 4:05 pm Said:

Yaddiya,

My nafs wanted to respond with “priceless” because we are all sinful. May Allah(swt) forgive me.
However, which quote from Quran made you run away from the Muslim Ummah?

I leave you with another ayah from Quran: Surah 2:214
Or do ye think that ye shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? they encountered suffering and adversity, and were so shaken in spirit that even the Messenger and those of faith who were with him cried: “When (will come) the help of Allah.” Ah! Verily, the help of Allah is (always) near!

Here is another one:
The believer who bears hardship willingly gets reward of patient people. Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {…but give glad tidings to As-Sâbirin (the patient ones, etc.). Who, when afflicted with calamity, say: “Truly! To Allâh we belong and truly, to Him we shall return.” They are those on whom are the Salawât (i.e. blessings, etc.) (i.e. who are blessed and will be forgiven) from their Lord, and (they are those who) receive His Mercy, and it is they who are the guided-ones.}[2:155-157].

I know the Quran is about Haqq. It’s hard on the nafs because we always get the whispers of Shaitain, however Islam isnt about “emotions” it’s about right and wrong. It’s about what “Allah Alone Commanded” and most of us are having problems submitting to Allah(swt) in Totality. I pray for us Muslims; that we can by the help of Allah(swt) defeat the whispers of shaitain the accursed.

Yaddiya since you called me by name. Wallahi, I never intend to hurt another Muslim. I never intend to disobey Allah(swt) to please a single soul on earth..not my parents, no one period. Wallahi, I pray for Iman to increase in your heart, Allah forgive upon you and all goes well with you. Wallahi, I pray Allah(swt) allow sakinah in your soul, heart that you may be also patient and join the ummah. In’shaAllah, I pray for all Muslims wanting to really submit to Allah(swt), but especially since you blame me for being one of those who ran you away from the masjid. Wallahi, it’s no good in being away from the ummah. Be strong in’shaAllah. Wallahi, I will not change the words of Allah(swt) but I will ask your forgiveness if I offended you with “other” than the Quran and Sunnah. This is for all the Muslims. I leave you know with “Salaams” by Allah(swt) I pray you accept my apology, and salaams.
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
HalimaNur, on May 8th, 2009 at 4:50 pm Said:

Yaddiya said “it’s like this one way track of mind… it’s horrible”

Allah(swt) said: The words of Allah(swt) will never change, and it’s straight from the time it was revealed til the day of judgment. No words will be changed, ever. This is the true “one tracker” and alhamdullilah and I wholeheartly accept it.
Quran and Hadith:
The Quran preserved till the day of judgment
[15:9] Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it.

3:85 And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the loser.

3:175. It is only Shaitân (Satan) that suggests to you the fear of his Auliyâ’ [supporters and friends (polytheists, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh and in His Messenger, Muhammad SAW)], so fear them not, but fear Me, if you are (true) believers.

3:178. And let not the disbelievers think that Our postponing of their punishment is good for them. We postpone the punishment only so that they may increase in sinfulness. And for them is a disgracing torment. Allahu Akbar!!!!!!!!!
This ayat is good for Muslims who feel “why does it seem like we the believers are being punish while the disbelievers are happy. Oh! Allah(swt) said he delayed the punishment and even in this delay, it shows the Rahman of Allah(swt) because they could realize their sins and repent, however, they continued into they are disgraced.

Allah says, “Say: ‘If your fathers or your sons or your brothers or your wives or your tribe, or any wealth you have acquired, or any business you fear may slump, or any dwelling-places which please you, are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger and fighting hard in jihad in His Way, then wait until Allah brings about His command.’” (Surah 9:25)
Swarth Moor, on May 8th, 2009 at 4:54 pm Said:

Thersites,

The wise and intelligent obviously do learn–for by learning, they fear God and obey God more. They learn that which God wills for them to learn. At the same time, people do not create their own intelligence, for if that were the case, then there would be no stupid people.
rwsmarts, on May 9th, 2009 at 8:36 am Said:

Thersites,

The Creator is attributed with power and knowledge.

The one who creates knows about what he creates.
Yesterday you may have walked around. You did not create this action of walking.If you did you would know the exact amount of steps you took. You would know the exact length of each step. You would know the time it took to make each step.

The one who creates has the power to do whatever he wills. A basketball player shoots the ball at the goal. If the ball player was the one who creates this action of shooting then he could create the action of the ball going in everytime. But that it not the case. Sometimes he misses. This shows he did not create this action.

Al-hamdu lillah
Thersites, on May 10th, 2009 at 2:59 am Said:

“The wise and intelligent obviously do learn–for by learning, they fear God and obey God more. They learn that which God wills for them to learn. At the same time, people do not create their own intelligence, for if that were the case, then there would be no stupid people.”

Precisely, Swarthmoor, the wise and intelligent do not learn becasue they are wise and intelligent, Nor are they wise and intelligent because they learn. Both happen entirely by the will of god and the wise and intelligent have no more choice that the foolish.

In this instance muslims are obliged to believe that god created Jack Kemp deliberately intending not to reveal the truth of islam to him and deliberately intending to send him to hell and torture him for ever for not knowing what god meant him never to know. A muslim description of justice.
Swarth Moor, on May 10th, 2009 at 6:24 pm Said:

Thersites,

Jack Kemp did not create himself from his parents’ reproductive fluids. He had/has a Creator. The Creator knows everything. God knew what Kemp would do before God brought Kemp into being. God is not obliged to do what is best for us–for if that had been the case, then we’d all be in Paradise and not enduring the difficulties and concerns that plague us as mortals.

God misguided Kemp–and that is not injustice, for, as was mentioned, God is not obligated to do good for His property–to the contrary, God is entitled to do whatever He wills, for everything is owned by God. Injustice, on the other hand, is to do what ONE IS NOT ENTITLED TO DO. Jack Kemp did not have the right to disbelieve in his Lord and Creator–but the Lord and Creator was not obligated to guide Jack Kemp.

From a simple common sense perspective, there can only be ONE God. It’s as easy as this: there are two EXISTENTS: there is the Creator, and there is the creation. There is no third category of existents. Whatever is not God is a creation. Jack Kemp (and his actions) were not the Creator; ergo, they must hae been creations. That’s very easy to understand.

The human being does not create his mind–or his actions. You and i cannot even give a full account of the physiological and neurological processess involved in the relatively simple process of typing on a keypad. Since we are igorant of the reality of such actions, then it is clear that we cannot be “creating” our actions–but that God is creating the actions in us.

Your problem stems, aside from your arrogance, from misunderstanding who/what you are and what justice is. You are a piece of flesh that came out from your mother’s body. You did not ask to be born–your Lord and Owner made you be born. Your Lord and Owner will make you go thru various states in this world. Your Lord and Owner will make you suffer and will make you die. You can’t stop that. As for the Muslim, he (or she) SUBMITS to the fact that he is owned by God AND that God has placed upon him various duties and prohibitions. As for the kaafir, he lives in a state of open rebellion to God and God’s Laws, and he will be condemned to Hell for such. Muslims know that, and the wise among the Muslims take lessons from the deviance of the misguidance of the disbelievers. That’s what it all boils down to.

Save yourself:

“Nothing is worthy of worship except Allah; Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.”

With Allah is the success.
rwsmarts, on May 10th, 2009 at 8:24 pm Said:

Thersites,

You should take Swarth Moor’s advice and save yourself. You just have to believe in God correctly and utter the Testification of Faith. Islam is the only religion accepted by Allah.

God is without partners. God is was not born. God always was. God is not in heaven. God is not in something or on something. God is not a body. God has no body parts. God is not in a place or a direction. Anything the mind can imagine Allah is different from that.

Just because you cannot see, feel, smell, or hear something does not mean it dosen’t exist.
Thersites, on May 10th, 2009 at 8:35 pm Said:

” God knew what Kemp would do before God brought Kemp into being. ”
God knew and intended what Kemp would do before God brought Kemp into being.
“God misguided Kemp–and that is not injustice, for, as was mentioned, God is not obligated to do good for His property–to the contrary, God is entitled to do whatever He wills, for everything is owned by God. Injustice, on the other hand, is to do what ONE IS NOT ENTITLED TO DO. Jack Kemp did not have the right to disbelieve in his Lord and Creator”…and Jack Kemp did not have the possibility to believe in his Lord and Creator because his lord and creator did not want him to. Nor was Jack Kemp entitled to do what his creator did not want him to do any more than he was able to do it.

“From a simple common sense perspective, there can only be ONE God. It’s as easy as this: there are two EXISTENTS: there is the Creator, and there is the creation. There is no third category of existents. Whatever is not God is a creation.”
Actually there may be an infinite number of creators. After all, if you argue that everything that exists must be created, there fore there must be a creator, the same argument apllies to the hypothetical creator and to the hypothetical creator’s hypothetical creator and so on for ever. On the other hand, if you say there must logically be something that was not created then it is reasonable to say that the universe is that which was not created. The logical alternatives are an infinite number of creators or no creators, Those involve only one logical contradiction whereas a finite number of creators- whether it be one creator or a googolplex of greators- requires two logical contradictions. Furthermore, there is no reason why there shouldn’t be many creators at the same level of creation- either “Creators Inc” working together or many creators working in opposition according to agreed rules.

“Jack Kemp (and his actions) were not the Creator; ergo, they must hae been creations. That’s very easy to understand.”
Certainly. And Jack Kemp (and his actions) were entirely what the creator intended them to be. Jack Kemp obeyed his creator exactly in his every action and will be tortured for ever because he obeyed his creator. That’s very easy to understand.

“Your problem stems, aside from your arrogance, from misunderstanding who/what you are and what justice is”
Not at all. That isn’t my problem at all. If you are right the creator meant me to be like this and I am the way the Creator meant me to be. I submit completely to the creator’s will. No problem at all.

“As for the Muslim, he (or she) SUBMITS to the fact that he is owned by God AND that God has placed upon him various duties and prohibitions. As for the kaafir, he lives in a state of open rebellion to God and God’s Laws, and he will be condemned to Hell for such. ”
But the muslim only submits because they are meant to submit. Equally, the kaafr is obeying god’s laws- they’re obediently doing what god wants them to do. The fact that they have no choice is irrelevant- both muslim and kaafr are completely obedient to god’s laws. The kaafr does what god wants, which is god’s law and will go to hell and be tortured for doing what god wants; if the kaafr could choose to submit then they would be disobeying god’s laws by not doing what god wants and would be sent to hell for that. anyway.
Thersites, on May 10th, 2009 at 10:08 pm Said:

“You should take Swarth Moor’s advice and save yourself. ”
According to Swarth Moor that’s god’s decision, not mine. rwsmarts.
Zaytoon, on May 11th, 2009 at 4:38 pm Said:

Many people who are not familiar with the Quran or did not make a good effort to study it are confused about the issue of befriending people from other religions. Many of them make grave judgment on this matter.

Quran is a complete book that occasionally presents a law or commandment over several chapters or several verses in the same chapter and the practical part of this commandment can be achieved by understanding the whole issue as presented over all the verses and chapters and not by upholding only part of the Quran. God specifically warn us against doing just that, upholding part of the Quran while disregarding the rest.

[2:85] ?. Do you believe in part of the scripture and disbelieve in part? What should be the retribution for those among you who do this?..

To understand the issue of befriending the Jews and Christians , we have to study all the concerned verses together in light of the whole Quran.

I heard many people mention 5:51 with no referral to the rest of the verses that discuss this important issue.

[5:51] O you who believe, do not take [certain] Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

Now, let’s look at some other verses about befriending the Jews and the Christians, or anyone not Muslim for that matter. These two verses are regulating relations with any people, regardless of faith;

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

Thus, we learn that we are only enjoined from befriending those who fight us because of religion. Let’s go back to the verse immediately after 5:51, to see if it now sheds some more light on the issue.

[5:52] You will see those who harbor doubt in their hearts hasten to join them, saying, “We fear lest we may be defeated.” May GOD bring victory, or a command from Him, that causes them to regret their secret thoughts.

Thus, it is clear that this is a situation when there is a division and an overhanging conflict between the believers and the others. Otherwise, what would be the logic behind the statement. “We fear lest we may be defeated.”

In these situations those with doubts in their hearts will ally themselves with the enemy.

5:57 makes it clear again, who are not to be taken as friends;

[5:57] O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture who mock and ridicule your religion, nor shall you befriend the disbelievers. You shall reverence GOD, if you are really believers.

God teaches us throughout the Quran that there are righteous Jews and Christians. So, if we think we are righteous, and they are righteous, what could possibly be the problem between us, or obstacle for us to be friends?

[7:159] Among the followers of Moses there are those who guide in accordance with the truth, and the truth renders them righteous.

[5:46] Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.

[5:47] The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD’s revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD’s revelations are the wicked.

[2:62 & 5:69] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[3:113-114]. They are not all the same; among the followers of the scripture, there are those who are righteous. They recite GOD’s revelations through the night, and they fall prostrate.

They believe in GOD and the Last Day, they advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and they hasten to do righteous works. These are the righteous.

[3:199] Surely, some followers of the previous scriptures do believe in GOD, and in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed to them. They reverence GOD, and they never trade away GOD’s revelations for a cheap price. These will receive their recompense from their Lord. GOD is the most efficient in reckoning.

We learn, however, from the Quran that the Christians are closer to the believers than the Jews. This is just a statement of fact by God almighty, that we can still witness during our time. God is the best knower of the emotional structure of His creations and therefore was this statement of fact in 5:82.

We can witness from the conflict in the Middle East for example , how very emotional the Jews get and how they react to conflicts with their friends, their enemies or even among themselves inside Israel.

[5:82] You will find that the worst enemies of the believers are the Jews and the idol worshipers. And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, “We are Christian.” This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.

This verse should not be used by any mean to negate the fact that among the Jews (and Christians) will be righteous people who can be good friends as explained in the above verses, they do not fight us in our religion or our homes.

They can be our neighbors, colleagues, friends, co-workers…etc We will be good to them as they are good to us.

We, all the striving to be righteous people of all religions ,can make the difference and make this world better by respecting each other, respecting the freedom of choice of each other, and remember that we all have the One and the same God.
Swarth Moor, on May 11th, 2009 at 6:36 pm Said:

Zaytoon,

A kaafir cannot be “righteous.” That’s an oxymoron. Instead, the disbeliever (and, yes, Christians and Jews are kuffaar/disbelievers) are fuel for the Hell and will be in Hell forever and ever in a torture that will not cease or decrease. The Christians and Jews ascribe to Allah the attributes of the creations. This alone makes them kuffaar (disbelievers). Furthermore they claim Allah is a liar (a`udhu billah) by rejecting Prophet Muhammad. The Qur’an says:

“Whoever does not believe in Allah AND HIS MESSENGER, then he is a disbeliever condemned to Hell.” (Al-Fath, 13)

Furthermore, the Prophet said:

“Any Jew or Christian who hears about me [the Prophet] and my Message, but does not believe, then he is condemned to Hell.” (Muslim related)

These apologists need to stop playing with people’s Aakhirah. A Muslim can be nice with the disbeliever. He can be generous with him; he can help the kaafir (in what does not pertain to sin); he can treat the kaafir kindly and with good manners. However, it needs to be PERFECTLY CLEAR in the Muslim’s mind that the kaafir is not equal to the Muslim–even the worst of the Muslims. And the Muslim needs to be perfectly clear that if this kaafir dies in disbelief, he will be in Hell forever.

There is this movement of pseudo-sunnis who are masquerading as “students of traditional knowledge,” but wish to obliterate the distinction between Imaan (Faith/Belief) and kufr (disbelief). Furthermore, they want to conceal from the Muslim masses the reality of takfeer and apostasy in the name of Islamic solidarity… when what they really mean is they want to GET PAID. These pseudo-shaykhs can’t even say without a great deal of equivocation that the Christians–and we are not talking about An-Nasraa (the genuine followers of Jesus from before advent of Prophet Muhammad’s receiving Revelation)–will be in Hell forever. If we want to help the kuffaar (and we should–by calling them to Islam), then we need to help OURSELVES by learning and uniting under the CORRECT knowledge of the Religion.

With Allah is the success.
Swarth Moor, on May 11th, 2009 at 7:07 pm Said:

Thersites,

Given your tag, you should know a little about hubris. You guys lost your way and have forgotten what you are:

1. You are God’s property.

2. God has the right to do with you whatever He wills.

3. God does not owe you anything (instead, you are OWNED by God).

The arrogance of disbelief veils one from understanding this basic reality of human existence. And it is this hubris that prevents the disbeliever from getting even a taste of genuine submission to and reliance upon Allah, the Lord of the Worlds. Now, God willing, let’s clarify some points.

Muslims make a distinction between God’s Will and God’s Order (i.e., God’s Sacred Law). The Will of God refers to God’s Perfect and Eternal Attribute of designating things to be the way they are. God knew in eternity–before the existence of any creations–what/when/how He would will the things to be (or not be). God’s Will does not change (instead, the creations are from moment to moment changed by God’s Will). No one can circumvent Allah’s Will. EVERYTHING happens by Allah’s Will. Whatever Allah has willed to be shall be, and whatever Allah has not willed to be shall not be. Afterall, there is only One Creator. No one brings anything into being except God.

Regarding Allah’s Orders–Allah ordered everyone to obey Him in His Sacred Laws that have been revealed to various Messengers through the ages. In no Order of God were people commanded to disobey their Creator. However, God has not Willed that everyone would abide by His Orders. That’s obvious, for we see sinful and disbelieving people all around us. Evil occurs by God’s Will–but God has not ORDERED anyone to commit it. And again, the wise take lessons from those who disobey God. May Allah grant you and me wisdom.

With Allah is the success.
rwsmarts, on May 11th, 2009 at 10:49 pm Said:

Zaytoon,

The christians and jews are KUFFAAR. These people are not rigtheous. These people reject the Prophet Muhammad.The Qur’an says:
“Whoever does not believe in Allah and his Messanger, then he is a disbeliever condemned to Hell.” (Al-Fath, 13) . Not only do they not believe in his Prophethood, they also call him a liar. Such people are not righteous. The ones among them who have heard the call to Islam and reject it will be tortured in HELL FOREVER.

Yes we all have the same God. But the christians think Jesus is their lord. The christians say Jesus is the son of God. The jews say Ezra is the son of God because he remembered the Torah. The jews and christians lie on the prophets in their books. The jews knew Prophet Muhammad was a Prophet. Since he was not from them they rejected him.These people are enemies of Allah. I do not call an enemy of Allah my friend.

There are some people calling themselves muslim that believe the christians and jews that are kind and perform good deeds will go to Paridise. Such belief is kuffaar. This belief belies what Allah said in Quran:
“Whoever does not believe in Allah and his Messanger, then he is a disbeliever condemned to Hell.” (Al-Fath, 13) . The kaafir is rewarded for his or her good deeds in this life. On the Day of Judgement the kaafir will have no good deeds. Anyone who hears the call to Islam and rejects it is condeemed to HELL FOREVER.

This guy W.D. Muhammad messed up a lot of people by telling them christians and jews who are kind will go to Paridise. As a result some people think that they are muslim when actually they are kaafir. Because they belie what Allah said in Quran. And they belie what the Prophet said in Hadith. This is blasphemy.

Islam is the only religion Allah accepts from His slaves and the only religion He ordered His slaves to follow. The one who performs the greatest right of Allah on the slave by worshipping Allah alone, not taking any partners to Him, and believing in the message of the Prophet Muhammad, will be granted everlasting bounties in Paradise. He who takes for himself a religion other than Islam and dies on that status will be a loser on the Day of Judgment and his eternal abode is Hellfire, where the torture does not cease nor decrease. Allah does not forgive the one who dies non-Muslim, nor will any of his good deeds done in this lifetime be accepted from him. Surat Muhammad, Ayah 34:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَصَدُّوا عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ مَاتُوا وَهُمْ كُفَّارٌ فَلَنْ يَغْفِرَ اللَّهُ لَهُمْ

means: [Those who blasphemed and block away from the ways of Allah and die as blasphemers, Allah shall not forgive them. Surat an Nisa’, Ayah 48:

Praise be to Allah
Daud, on May 11th, 2009 at 11:18 pm Said:

Any good a disbeliever does will NEVER benefit him on the Day of Judgement:

25:22 On the Day they will see the angels, no glad tidings will there be for the Mujrimûn (criminals, disbelievers, polytheists, sinners, etc.) that day. And they (angels) will say: “All kinds of glad tidings are forbidden for you,” [None will be allowed to enter Paradise except the one who said: Lâ ilâha ill-Allâh, "(none has the right to be worshipped but Allâh) and acted practically on its legal orders and obligations].

25:23 And We shall turn to whatever deeds they (disbelievers, polytheists, sinners, etc.) did, and We shall make such deeds as scattered floating particles of dust.
Thersites, on May 12th, 2009 at 2:01 am Said:

“You guys lost your way and have forgotten what you are:”
Only because it was god’s will that we do it, Swarth Moor. Even if we could, should we go against god’s will?

“The arrogance of disbelief veils one from understanding this basic reality of human existence. And it is this hubris that prevents the disbeliever from getting even a taste of genuine submission to and reliance upon Allah, the Lord of the Worlds. ”
Well, no; is only god’s will that we do this that stops us getting even a taste of genuine submission to and reliance upon Allah, the Lord of the Worlds If god willed otherwise we would do otherwise.

” No one can circumvent Allah’s Will. EVERYTHING happens by Allah’s Will….Allah ordered everyone to obey Him in His Sacred Laws that have been revealed to various Messengers through the ages. In no Order of God were people commanded to disobey their Creator. However, God has not Willed that everyone would abide by His Orders.”
More than that, god has willed that people do not obey his orders. You yourself acknowledge that we have no choice in obeying his will. He wills that we will not obey his orders.

“That’s obvious, for we see sinful and disbelieving people all around us. Evil occurs by God’s Will–but God has not ORDERED anyone to commit it. And again, the wise take lessons from those who disobey God. May Allah grant you and me wisdom.”
The wise do not take lessons from those who disobey God. God wills that the wise have wisdom, but they have wisdom regardless of whether they take lessons from those who disobey God. It is only by god’s will that they are wise. Equally, you only make your wish that god grant you and me wisdom because god has willed that you do it and your wish has no effect on god’s will. I prefer logic to wisdom, but that is only because it is god’s will and god’s orders have no effect at all, which is also god’s will.
Swarth Moor, on May 12th, 2009 at 8:58 am Said:

Thersites,

First of all, if you were into logic–and not arrogance–you’d be rushing to submit to your Lord. You are relegated to talking in circles because you are overlooking the most fundamental aspect of human existence. You didn’t create yourself; you don’t create your own actions. That means you have a Creator Who created you and KNOWS about you–and knew what you would do before He created you.

There is nowhere for you to go:

1. You are owned.

2. God is the only Creator, and God has the right to do with you whatever He wills.

3. God does not owe you anything.

This is irrefutable logic.

Human will–choice/volition–is confirmed by experience. I write these words BY A CHOICE–without fathoming the reality of how human volition operates. I could’ve chosen to do a thousands of other things at this time. We are not like the leaves that are blown about on a windy day. Our choice–as everything else in this universe–is created by God. Afterall, there is only ONE CREATOR.

The wise and intelligent certainly learn–they learn what God wills for them. And they see, in people like yourself, the dangers of arrogance and how kufr corrodes the heart and corrupts the mind. The sincere and logical person would seek to FIX HIMSELF once he realizes that he is God’s property. He would seek to find out what God ordered him with, so he could fulfill the commands of God. He wouldn’t revel in his disbelief and ingratitude. Instead, he would seek to show thanks and gratitude to his Lord by being obedient.

There is a world of difference IN THE ATTITUDE of those who submit to Allah and those who do not. For the former is Paradise and for the latter is Hell. Your primary concern, Thersites, is that you do that which will enable you to stay out of Hell and go to Paradise.

With Allah is the success.
Thersites, on May 12th, 2009 at 3:28 pm Said:

“First of all, if you were into logic–and not arrogance–you’d be rushing to submit to your Lord. ”
Not at all, Swarth Moor. God wlled that I be what I am and that’s what I am. It’s entirely his decision. I can’t rush anywhere unless god wills it and it doesn’t look likely he’s going to will me to submit to him.

“1. You are owned.

2. God is the only Creator, and God has the right to do with you whatever He wills.

3. God does not owe you anything.

This is irrefutable logic.”
It itn’t actually, although I’m perfectly happy to accept it for the sake of argument. Everything I say here rests on the hypothesis that your claims are true.

“Human will–choice/volition–is confirmed by experience. I write these words BY A CHOICE–without fathoming the reality of how human volition operates. I could’ve chosen to do a thousands of other things at this time. We are not like the leaves that are blown about on a windy day. Our choice–as everything else in this universe–is created by God. Afterall, there is only ONE CREATOR.”
So,if the one creator chooses what you will do you do not have a choice. The reason you don’t fathom the reality of how human volition operates is simple- it doesn’t exist if what you say is true. It is not confirmed by experience or anything else except the will of god. You could not choose to do anything but what god willed you to do and knew you would do before He created you and decided you would do by creating you. We are exactly like the leaves that are blown about on a windy day. God decided exactly what they would do and exactly what we would do in exactly the same way. The only reason we are not wasting our time trying to persuade one another of the truth of our respective opinions is that we have no choice at all about it. God wills that we do it and we do it.

“The wise and intelligent certainly learn–they learn what God wills for them.”
They aren’t wise and intelligent because they learn and they don’t learn because they’re wise and intelligent. Both are entirely the will of god. They have no choice in the matter.

“And they see, in people like yourself, the dangers of arrogance and how kufr corrodes the heart and corrupts the mind. ”
All of which happens entirely because god wills it. It isn’t my fault. If you are right, if I tried- and I couldn’t- to go against god’s will by submitting to god then I would be punished for going against god’s will. If I follow god’s will by not submitting to god then I will be punished for not submitting to god.

“The sincere and logical person would seek to FIX HIMSELF once he realizes that he is God’s property. He would seek to find out what God ordered him with, so he could fulfill the commands of God. He wouldn’t revel in his disbelief and ingratitude. Instead, he would seek to show thanks and gratitude to his Lord by being obedient.”
However, i can’t because god has willed that I won’t.

“There is a world of difference IN THE ATTITUDE of those who submit to Allah and those who do not. For the former is Paradise and for the latter is Hell. Your primary concern, Thersites, is that you do that which will enable you to stay out of Hell and go to Paradise.”
And that attitude is like everything else- entirely willed by god.
Swarth Moor, on May 12th, 2009 at 6:58 pm Said:

Thersites,

Understand that there is ONE Creator. The CREATOR is not created. Therefore the attributes of the creations, such as, origination, dependency, change, time, size, place, etc. do not apply to the One Who created everything. Consequently, there is not a “sequence” of “creators”–the Creator, by definition is UNCREATED and not in need–and that which is created or in need of others to bring it into being cannot be God.

As for this universe–that is, everything other than God–it must have a beginning. The non-existent cannot act, for doing entails being, so the universe did not create itself. It was brought into existence. The universe is composed of temporal/created events, and therefore we know the universe is itself a temporal/created event. Furthermore, infinity could not have preceded today, and yesterday, and 500 years ago, and 5,000 years ago.

There cannot be a multitude of alleged “creators,” for contrary events cannot occur simultaneously, in the same space, in the same regard. The sun cannot be rising in the east and setting in the west in Chicago at the same time. Regarding alleged creators having to “agree with each other”–then they could not be the Eternal God, for God is not bound to agree with anyone. God is not dependent upon anything–much less dependent upon agreeing with others.

There is nowhere for you to go with this looney logic of Sophistry 101–the Muslim scholars of doctrine dismantled you guys and your vapid arguments more than 1,000 years ago. The bottomline is that this universe is not beginningless, nor is it self-created. It was brought into being and is designated with its respective characteristics by the One (God) Who is not subject to the conditions of created beings. The One Who brought this universe into being knows all about it, and He has power over all of it–including, human will.

Lastly, regarding the matter of will, it is clear that no reasonable and logical person thinks that the human being is void of volition. Your involutary sweating from the heat is not your walking to the market. The latter is called a voluntary act, the former is called an involuntary act. A child can understand that. However, since the human being cannot give a full account of the relatively simple act of walking, it means that he cannot be the “creator” of his action. The human has a volition–it is not God, therefore, it must be a creation of God.

With Allah is the success.
Thersites, on May 12th, 2009 at 10:12 pm Said:

“Understand that there is ONE Creator.”
…if there is a creator at all. However, that need not be so. A game- the actual events of a game - can have many creators- all the players. Even if there is only one creator it may not be unique. In one way a computer has only one creator: the company that made it; in another it has many- everyone who wrote programmes for it, made the parts, mined the materials etc… There is no reason why the “one” creator should be one entity.

“The CREATOR is not created.”
You simply assert this without evidence or reason.. The choices are: “The universe exists. Everything that exists must have a creator. The universe must have a creator. The creator of the universe exists. Everything that exists must have a creator. The creator of the universe must have a creator. Everything that exists must have a creator. The creator of the creator of…” in an infinite regression
OR
“There must be something that is uncreated. Until we have direct evidence otherwise we willl assume that something is the universe.”
EACH of these choices involves only one logical absurdity, anything in between- one creator or a googolplex of creators- involves two logical absurdites.

“the Creator, by definition is UNCREATED and not in need.”
Really? I create this post. You created the post I reply to. That is not evidence that we are uncreated and not in need.
“–and that which is created or in need of others to bring it into being cannot be God”
…and I deliberately did not use the term “god” for that reason. However, the hypothetical creator of this universe may have absolute and complete power over this universe, but only because its creator, which has absolute and complete power over it, created it with absolute and complete power over this universe.

“As for this universe–that is, everything other than God–it must have a beginning. The non-existent cannot act, for doing entails being, so the universe did not create itself. It was brought into existence.”
If the universe did not have a beginning it was never non-existent. If it did have a beginning, then: As for god–that is, whatever made this universe - it must have a beginning. The only reason you claim it must esixt is because everything must hace a beginning Therefore it too must have a beginning.
“The universe is composed of temporal/created events, and therefore we know the universe is itself a temporal/created event. ”
We perceive the universe as composed of temporal/created events, and therefore we perceive the universe is itself a temporal/created event. That says more about our perception than the universe.

“infinity could not have preceded today, and yesterday, and 500 years ago, and 5,000 years ago.”
Why not? After all, you claim infinity must succeed today, and tomorrow and 500 years to come, and 5,000 years to come..

“There cannot be a multitude of alleged “creators,” for contrary events cannot occur simultaneously, in the same space, in the same regard. ”
And who said they must? However two actors may produce one consequence which neither could achieve or expect alone.

“Regarding alleged creators having to “agree with each other”–then they could not be the Eternal God, for God is not bound to agree with anyone. God is not dependent upon anything–much less dependent upon agreeing with others.”
Each one individually would not be the Eternal God, However, the consequences of their actions would be identical to the consequences of the actions of the hypothetical Eternal God,

“The bottomline is that this universe is not beginningless, nor is it self-created. ”
Who said the universe was created at all?

” It was brought into being and is designated with its respective characteristics by the One (God) Who is not subject to the conditions of created beings. The One Who brought this universe into being knows all about it, and He has power over all of it–including, human will.”
AS I said those two claims do not support one another as you suppose. There is no reason why the One Who brought this universe into being and knows all about it- assuming that it did both- and has power over all of it–including, human will (assuming that that is also true- it is pefectly possible that something brought the universe about without intent or volition or that something brought it about and has not paid any attention to it it since or that something that did not bring it about is responsible for and knows all about the actual running of the universe) should not be subject to another being that created it and this universe just as you claim that that creator created me and the post I am now creating.

“it is clear that no reasonable and logical person thinks that the human being is void of volition. Your involutary sweating from the heat is not your walking to the market. The latter is called a voluntary act, the former is called an involuntary act. A child can understand that. ”
Only because the child has not thought about it. What they are called is not necessarily what they are. You walk to the market for the same reason you sweat- god wills them both. The fact that god wills that you should believe you walk to the market of your own volition does not mean that it is your own volition. Both are the consequences of god’s will and you have no choice about either of them, including your belief that you have a choice.

” “However, since the human being cannot give a full account of the relatively simple act of walking, it means that he cannot be the “creator” of his action. The human has a volition–it is not God, therefore, it must be a creation of God.”
In other word’s the human volition is only to do what god has already decied he will do. It’s an illusion or a delusion. I leave the choice of term to you- or god.
Swarth Moor, on May 14th, 2009 at 5:51 pm Said:

Thersites,

When Muslims use the word “create” in this context, we mean to bring ex nihilo (out of nothingness) into being. Humans don’t “create”–they manipulate. The human being cannot produce a substance from a vacuum. They take things that exists: objects, energies, ideas, etc. and are able to manipulate them TO A CERTAIN EXTENT. With that said, neither of us are “creating” these posts–you can’t even explain how you formulate your thoughts, much less give a full account of how your mind and body function.

You are confused here: the Creator, the ONE Who brought the universe into existence IS NOT LIKE THE CREATED, so whatever has a start, and is brought into being, and is dependent is not God. This is why it was said you cannot have a chain of “creators”–for each one of them would be dependent upon the one who preceded it. The one who is dependent is not Eternal and not Transcendent (as in free of need and not of a literal altitidude). All the CREATIONS have a beginning; the Creator, Who is not similar to the creations, does not have a beginning. That’s very easy to understand.

Regarding temporal events, common sense and experience shows that we, and the things around us, have a start. Since this universe is simply that which it is composed of–namely, events that have a start–then the universe is an event, and it has a start.

Thersites, you need to think about what you are saying: you cannot have an infinite past. One could never reach the present if the past never began. Furthermore, according to the looney logic of the Greeks, infinity preceded yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and today’s (alleged) previous infinity is greater than yesterday’s (alleged) previous infinity, and less than tomorrow’s (alleged) previous infinity. For the record, you can’t have a “greater,” much less, a “lesser” infinity. As for infinity of the future, that is rationally possible, but at any given point into the future, there must be a finite number of events that preceded it. As for past eternality (beginninglessness) of time/the universe, this is impossible to exists.

Lastly, if the Creator were not managing and sustaining the universe from moment to moment, then the universe would not exist. The universe cannot–in and of itself–assemble and arrange itself. The universe cannont designate itself with its future. It is now–in its current state at any given moment–because the Creator has specified it to be such.

The bream are getting on their beds, and i don’t have a lot of time for this now. But i will summarize, God-willing. The universe exists. It is not self-created, for a thing cannot act unless it exists, so acting or “creating” before existing is an absurdity. The universe is not beginningless, for that would mean an infinite amount of time would have to be traversed to reach the present. That which can be traversed is not infinite. Therefore, the Creator, Who is not subject to time or being brought into being created this universe.

There is One Creator–for if there we two or a multitude of (alleged) creators they would either vie for supremacy or be bound to each other. If they were bound to each other, then they both/all would be weak. And if they had to vie for supremacy then again, they both/all would be weak. Furthermore, if these (alleged) gods could not annihilate each other, then they would be weak. And the thing that cannot create (annihilation) cannot be the Creator of the universe.

There is the Creator, and there is the creation. Everything other than God is a creation of God, whether it be space, direction time, motion, stillness, The One Who created the universe is not dependent upon the universe (including, space, direction, and time and all those things that exists therein). Human thoughts, intentions, and wills are part of this universe–and therefore are created by Allah.

The universe is sustained moment to moment by the Creator. God is the Creator of everything–including, time, and all the acts that occur therein. The creations are incapable of creating (in this sense), for the creations do not have the ability to designate themselves with their attributes. An oak cannot specify itself with its weight, height, or number of acorns it will produce. We are incapable of designating ourselves with what will happen to us next week, much less, five years from now. This means there is One (Allah) Who is Eternal and knows all about us and has complete control over us and the entire universe. This is the Creed that is consonant with Divine Revelation, the judgment of the sound mind, and this is the Creed of the Muslims. Blessed is the one who understands and accepts it.

With Allah is the success.
Thersites, on May 15th, 2009 at 7:06 pm Said:

“When Muslims use the word “create” in this context, we mean to bring ex nihilo (out of nothingness) into being. ”
Which presupposes, without evidence, that there was a nothing and that there was an active creator. Indeed, if there was a creator then there wasn’t a nothing. Even if there were such a creator it need not be “one”: it could be many working together in a variety of ways. Just as you hypothesise a creator outside the universe which creates the whole universe exact in every detail then it is just as logical to hypothesis a creator of the creator, outside “wherever” the creator “is” which creates both the creator and the creator’s creation of the universe and a creator of the creator of the creator…Once you make the first hypothesis it is logically impossible to stop. If you say there must be a start which is uncreated, as you do, or uncaused, in the terminology of other philosophies, then it’s reasonable to start with the universe as uncreated rather than imagine hypothetical creators. Common sense and observation shows that we have a start; they don’t show that everything has a start.. That is an inference. If we infer that the universe has a start and a starter, then again it is more reasonable to infer that the starter has a starter and that there are an unending number of starters than it is to think that there is a single starter. Once you take the first step in the chain you must take the second; if you take the second…

” For the record, you can’t have a “greater,” much less, a “lesser” infinity. ”
You can. The number of even numbers is infinite, but it is less than the number of whole numbers- half as great,to be precise.
“As for past eternality (beginninglessness) of time/the universe, this is impossible to exists.”
Exactly the same applies to a beginningless creator. The only difference is that that hypothesis shifts all of the logical problems involved back another stage, It does not solve the problems, it just pretends that they don’t exist.

“Lastly, if the Creator were not managing and sustaining the universe from moment to moment, then the universe would not exist. The universe cannot–in and of itself–assemble and arrange itself. The universe cannont designate itself with its future.”
YET the cretaor can assemble and arrange itself? Same problem as above.

” It is now–in its current state at any given moment–because the Creator has specified it to be such.”
Not at all. The universe is pretty predictable
in many ways- those ways are called laws of nature. Accepting your argument that they were “created” rather than inherent in the universe itself then the creator need do no more than lay them down and leave them to operate. The creator need not know what the consequences will be or even need to be aware of what they have done. If there is a creator, perhaps it was creating something else and the unoverse was an unintended side-effect of that creation.

“There is One Creator–for if there we two or a multitude of (alleged) creators they would either vie for supremacy or be bound to each other. If they were bound to each other, then they both/all would be weak. And if they had to vie for supremacy then again, they both/all would be weak. Furthermore, if these (alleged) gods could not annihilate each other, then they would be weak. And the thing that cannot create (annihilation) cannot be the Creator of the universe.”
Weak comparatively, yes, but- again- common sense and observation shows that beings that are weak individually do join together and become strong in co-operation. Equally, humans can compete with one another without trying to annihilate one another. Indeed, they compete and co-operate with one another at one and the same time If you imagine- as you do- beings that much superior to humans in ability and knowledge then they would be as superior in other abilities too.

“… the creations do not have the ability to designate themselves with their attributes …This means there is One (Allah) Who is Eternal and knows all about us and has complete control over us and the entire universe. ”
Er? “This means”? Please explain how the second of these is a logical deduction from the second.

However, according to your own beliefs, there was no point in writing this- after all, you are not going to change my mind- that is done merely by god’s will and your writings are irrelevant. The only reason you write this is that god has silled you will write it and you have no choice but to do so.
kinzi, on May 16th, 2009 at 2:03 am Said:

Well well. I see my place very clearly as a ‘kaafir’. Now do I need to wonder if my Muslim friends, neighbors and co-workers really love me as they say they do?

If I wasn’t an Islamophobe before, this thread would make me one.

Imagine if it got out into secular media what people would be saying. @@
Swarth Moor, on May 17th, 2009 at 10:28 pm Said:

Thersites,

You are assuming that i am saying the Creator is similar to the created. The One Who is Eternal (Beginningless) is not similar to what has a start. The thing that is brought into being is not the Eternal Creator. Similarly, being “inside” or “outside” doesn’t apply to the One Who created the “ins” and the “outs.” “Where” doesn’t apply to the the One Who created space, time, directions, dimensions, etc. The One Who created the universe isn’t dependent upon it. Similarly “arrangement,” and “assembly” don’t apply to the One Who has no beginning, for the Eternal One doesn’t change.

You are also confusing the real world with mathematical suppositions. One could (wrongly) assert the infinite division of a single second of time. However, we know IN REALITY that a second isn’t infinitely long. Any set of entities at any given time has a limit (that is, it is not infinite). Those even numbered entites in that set are going to be fewer than the entire set itself. It’s a basic rule of common sense that the part is necessary less than the whole.

Similarly, this “day,” or whatever unit of time one wishes to use to refer to a given point, is either going to be “even” or “odd.” “Today” cannot be both an odd and an even numbered “day” of creation. And it can’t be neither. It has to be one or the other. Given that it is one or the other, then it is finite and quantifiable (hence, not infinite). And as was said, if an “infinity” preceded today, that infinity could not be traversed, and we could not arrive at the present. That is, the same as the absurd claim that a second of time could be divided infinitely–if one second were infinite we could not reach the succeeding second and so on. From this it is known to every reasonable person that what preceded now has a limit (i.e., has a start). (This same argument can be employed against the assertion of an infinite chain of (alleged) creators who are all dependent upon the one who preceded it. If this chain of alleged creators has no start, then, again, we could not reach the present.)

Regarding what is called the “laws of nature,” and by nature, i am assuming you are referring to the sum of what we see around us in the world and its customary patterns, it only exists by it being created by God. “Nature,” like the universe itself has a beginning. It needs the Creator to designate with its properties. Inanimate things devoid of knowledge and volition do not ascribe themselves with their own attributes, much less, grant themselves existence out of non-existence. And things cannot bestow upon themselves existence from moment to moment. There must be the One Who is creating and sustaining the creations and the customary patterns we witness therein.

Your co-operation analogy doesn’t work. Humans work together out of need and seeking benefit and avoiding harm from each other. Humans have laws to protect themselves from each other. Without laws (and those with the relative power to impose their will upon others) humans would work to destroy each other (on a greater scale than they currently do). The Eternal One, however, doesn’t seek benefit from others and doesn’t need protection, for the One Who has no beginning is not dependent upon the creations. God was and the creations were not. God wasn’t dependent upon the creations before bringing them into being, and God did not become in need of the creations after making them exist.

Thersites, this isn’t a complicated matter. There is a creation–ergo, there is a Creator. The universe isn’t self-created and it isn’t beginningless. You can’t have a doing unless someone/thing does it. Either one gets that simple point, or they come up with long convoluted arguments to (attempt to) justify their rebellion against their Lord. You did not create yourself. Your organs, tissue, cells, DNA, molecules, and atoms did not have foreknowledge and a contract to agree with each other to assemble a human being. Nor did your constituents form themselves out of nothingness and give themselves their own properties. They were BROUGHT INTO BEING and specified with their characteristics. Anything that is brought into being needs the One (i.e., the Eternal One, Who was not brought into being) to grant it existence.

Lastly, it is understood that the human being does not create his thoughts or actions. That should be obvious, for the human being cannot give a full account of how he thinks or moves his body. I think you even agree on that point. If we created our own thoughts, then nobody would be stupid and nobody would be handicapped or infirm. If i created my own actions, i would’ve played third base for the NY Mets, and would currently be the top earner on the B.A.S.S circuit. Of course, Allah guides whomever He wills. Nonetheless, Muslims are obligated to order the good and forbid the evil, and among the greatest of evils is atheism, so we refute it seeking the reward from the Lord and to protect the Muslims from various forms of deviance.

With Allah is the success.
Brieta, on May 17th, 2009 at 11:05 pm Said:

My gosh, the inviting to the way with beautiful speech is so underwhelming here! I’m with Kinzi on this one. The manners or adaab, the concern for humanity, the ability to recognise goodness in another human being. All of it is absent in the posts of many of these readers, as they rush to prove how superior they, and all Muslims are, just by virtue of which ancient book they have chosen to believe, and state over and over again that the rest of us are not worth the time of day. Is this really the beauty of Islam you would show to people like Kinzi and myself?
Thersites, on May 19th, 2009 at 3:11 am Said:

You assume that there is a creator, Swarth Noor, and then assume that the hypothetical ultimate creator, “The One Who is Eternal”, is the one directly involved with this universe. There is no reason why the universe should not be The One Who is Eternal an there is no reason to think the hypthetical creator of the universe is the ultimate creator, The One Who is Eternal.

“You are also confusing the real world with mathematical suppositions. One could (wrongly) assert the infinite division of a single second of time. However, we know IN REALITY that a second isn’t infinitely long. Any set of entities at any given time has a limit (that is, it is not infinite). Those even numbered entites in that set are going to be fewer than the entire set itself. It’s a basic rule of common sense that the part is necessary less than the whole.”
Certainly, however- as with whole numbers and even numbers, both can be infinite. The problems of infinity and eternity- philosophical, mathematical and logical- you evade by moving them away to “The One Who is Eternal” and imagining that that settles it.

“Similarly, this “day,” …is either going to be “even” or “odd.” “Today” cannot be both an odd and an even numbered “day” of creation. And it can’t be neither. It has to be one or the other”
Who said today is a “day” - however defined- of creation at all?

“That is, the same as the absurd claim that a second of time could be divided infinitely–if one second were infinite we could not reach the succeeding second and so on.”
You confuseinfinite dic=visibility and infinity- rather ifferent things.
” From this it is known to every reasonable person that what preceded now has a limit (i.e., has a start). (This same argument can be employed against the assertion of an infinite chain of (alleged) creators who are all dependent upon the one who preceded it. If this chain of alleged creators has no start, then, again, we could not reach the present.)”
…but it’s a logical conclusion from the claim that the universe must have been creat. Every argument used to show that the universe is creat shows that the creator was created. If you assert that the cretaor cannot have been created then by the same argument the universe need not have been created. The claim that there is “One Who is Eternal” applies with equal logic to either, or to the creator’’s creator, or the creator’s creator’s cretaor or…

“Regarding what is called the “laws of nature,” and by nature, i am assuming you are referring to the sum of what we see around us in the world and its customary patterns, it only exists by it being created by God. ”
No,I am referring to what can be predicted in the future of the universe and its customary patterns from onferences drawn from observations of their past. We do not need the hypothesis of god to observe that. What we can deduce about future behaviour makes both the existence and the immediate presence of god less necessary to explain it.
” “Nature,” like the universe itself has a beginning. It needs the Creator to designate with its properties. Inanimate things devoid of knowledge and volition do not ascribe themselves with their own attributes, much less, grant themselves existence out of non-existence. And things cannot bestow upon themselves existence from moment to moment. There must be the One Who is creating and sustaining the creations and the customary patterns we witness therein.”
And how did that one have knowledge and volition, ascribe itself its own attributes, grant itself existence out of non-existence, bestow upon itself existence from moment to moment?

What is the logical connexion between this: “The Eternal One, however, doesn’t seek benefit from others and doesn’t need protection, for the One Who has no beginning is not dependent upon the creations. God was and the creations were not. God wasn’t dependent upon the creations before bringing them into being, and God did not become in need of the creations after making them exist.” and this: “Your co-operation analogy doesn’t work. Humans work together out of need and seeking benefit and avoiding harm from each other. Humans have laws to protect themselves from each other. Without laws (and those with the relative power to impose their will upon others) humans would work to destroy each other (on a greater scale than they currently do).”
It is not an analogy at all. You asserted that more powerful beings than humans could not co-operate out of mutual interest as evidence there could be only one creator and then use your unsubstantiated claim that there is only one creator as “proof” of your claim. Humans- and other animals- have laws to protect themselves against one another. there is no reason why other more powerful beings shouldn’t do as we do and agree just such laws.

“You can’t have a doing unless someone/thing does it. …. Anything that is brought into being needs the One (i.e., the Eternal One, Who was not brought into being) to grant it existence.”
So the Eternal one must have been brought into being or it can’t exist.
Thersites, on May 19th, 2009 at 3:16 am Said:

“. Is this really the beauty of Islam you would show to people like Kinzi and myself?”

Well, yes, Brieta, in the eyes of logical muslims, it is. It doesn’t matter a bit what you do or how good you are, if you reject islam you will go to hell and suffer horrible tortures for ever and quite right too. There are those muslims who don’t or won’t recognise this and those who don’t like it and try to avoid believing it but unless they change their ways they’ll end up in hell as well.
Swarth Moor, on May 20th, 2009 at 9:21 am Said:

Thersites,

You cannot traverse an (allegedly) infinite amount of time. If the universe stretched back for infinity, the present could not be reached. That’s one of the reasons why one knows the universe is created. Now if you attempt to apply the same to an alleged chain of creators, well, again, you could not reach the beginning of that chain–ergo, the universe could not exist (but it does). Furthermore, the creation is composed of originated events, that means that it is NOT eternal, and that the One Who brought the universe into being is Eternal and NOT an originated event.

The problem here, Thersites, is that you keep thinking that Muslims believe the Creator is something like the creations. The universe and its various facets are clearly originated. Afterall, that is what the universe is composed of–namely, temporal and originated events.

Now, i don’t think even you are going to say the universe is composed of originated events, but it is not originated. Unless, you are saying that earth is eternal, and the seas are eternal and the stones, and the trees, and on down the line are all eternal. And i’m sure you see the absurdity of claiming the universe is composed of eternal events that are originated. The things around us have starts AND THEY CHANGE. Change, as Al-Junayd Al-Baghdadi said, is the greatest indication of being a creation. Anything that changes has a start, and anything with a start must change.

The One Who originated everything is not like anything; whereas, the various creations ARE LIKE OTHER CREATIONS. They share various attributes in common, such as, size, space, time, etc. God does not change and doesn’t have the properties of the creations. Clearly, the CREATIONS are dependent upon something to designate themselves with their respective properties. On the other hand, the One without an origin is not designated with His Attributes and is not in need of anything. The Eternal One is not like the created–but the creations are numerous and like other creations.

Regarding mentioning a “day” (or whatever unit of time) i think you understood what was meant. In other words, the number of events that have occured up to any given time in this universe is either even or odd–they can’t be both–they can’t be neither. But if the world has no beginning, the number of events up to a given point would be neither odd nor even, which is an absurdity.

Regarding the customary patterns, they don’t give themselves their own properties. The stone, for instance, doesn’t assign itself with its mass, time, location, size, composition, etc. It needs something to give it its properties. These properties themselves cannot bring themselves into being. They are originated and require a Creator.

Claiming that a group of humans collaborating is analogous to a group of “higher beings” (acting as “creators”) collaborating is faulty, for the reasons that were said: those beings would still be bound to the laws they made (so the laws themselves would have to be created), and would be harmed or weakened if one/some of them refused to co-operate. Furthermore, those beings, if they have the power to create, would have the power to annihilate, that means they could annihilate each other, and if they coudn’t then they don’t have the power to create. So those beings you are talking about are not the Creator.

Lastly, your quote;

“So the Eternal one must have been brought into being or it can’t exist.”

Again, another example of that looney logic and sophistry from the Greeks. There is a third (and correct) position to answer your false dilemma: that is, the ETERNAL CREATOR is NOT LIKE THE CREATIONS. The thing brought into being is not eternal. And we know the Eternal One exists because of the creation, for there is no doing without a doer and no creation without a Creator. God exists, and since God is Eternal, God is not like anything whatsoever.

With Allah is the success.
Thersites, on May 20th, 2009 at 4:25 pm Said:

“You cannot traverse an (allegedly) infinite amount of time. If the universe stretched back for infinity, the present could not be reached. ”
Certainly it could. It just wouldn’t be possible to date when the present is.
“That’s one of the reasons why one knows the universe is created. ”
In which case you merely shift the “problem” back another stage to the creator and pretend to have solved it.

” you are saying that earth is eternal, and the seas are eternal and the stones, and the trees, and on down the line are all eternal. ”
I am saying that the subatomic particles and/or whatever makes up the subatomic particles that make them up <b.are eternal. All of the evidence is that they existed in some way before the big bang (Iwhich was not the beginning of the universe but when the universe became the way it is now) and they will continue to exist for ever. Your error is in supposing that earth and the seas and the stones, and the trees and human beings are anything but a temporary agglomeration of molecules in the universe’s existence. IF your idea of a god that knows and fixes exactly everything that happens in the universe were true then it would organise every subatomic particle exactly. We are just a side-effect of that pattern.

“Claiming that a group of humans collaborating is analogous to a group of “higher beings” (acting as “creators”) collaborating is faulty, for the reasons that were said: those beings would still be bound to the laws they made (so the laws themselves would have to be created), and would be harmed or weakened if one/some of them refused to co-operate. Furthermore, those beings, if they have the power to create, would have the power to annihilate, that means they could annihilate each other, and if they coudn’t then they don’t have the power to create. So those beings you are talking about are not the Creator.”
Humans have the power to annihilate one another and, for all their faults, they haven’t. If beings as imperfect as humans or ants can agrre, implemet and ebnforce rules to ensure their mutual cooperation then there’s no reason why other beings shouldn’t.

“the ETERNAL CREATOR is NOT LIKE THE CREATIONS. The thing brought into being is not eternal. And we know the Eternal One exists because of the creation, for there is no doing without a doer and no creation without a Creator. God exists, and since God is Eternal, God is not like anything whatsoever.”
In fact, your argument is: Nothing can exist without being created therefore something that was not created must exist in order to create all the things that could not exist if they hadn’t been created.
If God is not like anything whatsoever, then obviously god is like nothing whatsoever.
Swarth Moor, on May 21st, 2009 at 11:47 am Said:

Thersites,

Not only would it be impossible to date the present, one could not reach the present if the universe had no start. If someone told you: “We are selling seats to an event (let’s say a football game).” Now you ask: “When does the game begin?” To that they respond: “This game doesn’t have a start.” Well, it doesn’t take a brainiac to know that the game isn’t going to take place (and you wouldn’t buy a seat). Anything that takes place in time has a start–this universe takes place in time; ergo, this universe has a start.

You cannot cross an infinite series. Whatever has occured up until the present is the terminating point of what came before. That which terminates is not infinite. Since the universe is not infinitely ancient, then it has a start. It could not start itself, so it needed a Doer (Creator) to bring it into being.

The subatomic particles, that you suppose are eternal, change. The eternal doesn’t change. Also, that which changes has originated properties. A thing cannot be “part originated” and “part eternal,” for eternality and origination are mutually exclusive. That which has originated attributes is itself originated. That which has eternal attributes is itself Eternal. If the subatomic particles are eternal, then that which is composed of subatomic particles is eternal. So that would make all the things we see around us (e.g., animals, clouds, plants, etc.) all eternal… but that belies our reality, for we see things coming into and going out of existence. Furthermore, you can’t have a change that didn’t start, so that which changes is not beginningless.

Regarding laws, humans make them because they are dependent upon each other. Those laws have a start. Animals have “laws” because of their instincts–they don’t have legislative discussions. Now these alleged higher beings you posit are either themselves absolutely free-of-need or they are dependent. If they are free-of-need, then they don’t need each other (and could annihilate each other)–and they don’t need laws. Or they are dependent upon each other. If they are dependent, then they need to be specified with their attributes of dependency.

To respond to your sophistry: No CREATION can exist without being created. The world exists, and we see in its properties that they are subject to time and transformation. Things (i.e., temporal-created things) have their attributes (and existence) because they were designated with such. They didn’t always exist. The tree, and right on down the line to the subatomic level, did not assign itself with its properties. It needs to be specified with existence and its attributes. The One Who specified things to be the way they are is not specified with anything, for the Eternal One is not dependent upon originated. Lastly, the Eternal One is not similar to anything whatsoever AMONG THE CREATIONS. That was pretty clear in light of all that was said.

With Allah is the success.

swarthmoor.wordpress.com
Marinkina, on May 21st, 2009 at 6:13 pm Said:

Пора переименовать блог, присвоив название связанное с доменами может хватит про них?
Thersites, on May 21st, 2009 at 10:23 pm Said:

“Anything that takes place in time has a start–this universe takes place in time; ergo, this universe has a start.”
Not at all. For one thing, this assumes that time is inelastic. It also assumes that time is separate- and separable- from the rest of the universe. Time is an inextricable part of this universe.

“You cannot cross an infinite series. Whatever has occured up until the present is the terminating point of what came before. That which terminates is not infinite.”
Who said we are crossing it? Where and when is this “present” you are talking about? It was certainly before the “present” when i type this which is already past too. What came before includes what you said was the termination of what came before therefore it didn’t terminate.

“The subatomic particles, that you suppose are eternal, change.”
How do they change?
” That which has originated attributes is itself originated. ”
And what are “originated attributes” How do they differ from eternal attributes? It is perfectly possible that originated attributes will never end and so will be eternal after all.
” If the subatomic particles are eternal, then that which is composed of subatomic particles is eternal. ”
It is. It’s the universe.
“So that would make… animals, clouds, plants, etc. all eternal”
Why? If I cut my hair the hair is no longer part of me. It still evists. If I throw it on the fire the atoms that make ot up combine with oxygen to make new molecules but they are not destroyed. We replace the molecules and atoms that make us up regularly- we are literally no longer made up of the same molecules as ten years ago- does this menat that the molecules we were made up with then have disapppeared? Put a plant in a n airtight container. Weigh it. A hundred years later the plant is dead but the contents weigh the same. The atoms that make them and the subatomic particles that make them are still there.
“Furthermore, you can’t have a change that didn’t start, so that which changes is not beginningless”
Why not? What causes/creates something? What came before. What cause that? What came before. What…? You say that logically there was a…time, shall we say?…when there was no change. Then change started. You can’t have a non-change that stopped. But if there was no change, why should change begin? Either there has aways been change or there has never been change. Change exists so there has always been change.

“Now these alleged higher beings you posit are either themselves absolutely free-of-need or they are dependent. If they are free-of-need, ”
That does not mean they are free-of-choice or free-of-preference. The alleged higher being you posit is free-of-need. If it is free of need it has no need to do anything, such as create. If it does something it is because it needs to. If it creates then it needs to create. Indeed, if it creates there is no need to create one particular thing, therefore it needs to create every possible thing. Therefore it is not only not free-of-need (or free-of-preference- for if it must create everything it cannot prefer anything), it is free-of-choice too.

“No CREATION can exist without being created….the Eternal One is not similar to anything whatsoever AMONG THE CREATIONS.”
And the only “evidence” for the existence of “the eternal one” is the claim that there are creations.
Nothing can exist without being created therefore something that was not created must exist in order to create all the things that could not exist if they hadn’t been created. What is “sophistical” about that? It is the whole basis if tour claims.
Again, there are two choices.
Either there is something without a cause or everything has a cause. Either the universe does not have a cause and your hypothetical creator is not necessary or the universe was caused (or created) because everything must have a cause and your hypothetical creator must have a cause. Either way, we must accept one logical contradiction. You want to accept both.
TheSonOfAdam, on May 22nd, 2009 at 12:27 am Said:

Thersites, You lack the ability to reason.

The universe. What about the universe? Well, As for the ‘beginning’ of the universe, there are only 4 reasonable conclusions. And two of them each fall into one or two categories.

Either the Universe has a start point, a beginning, or it does not. Those are the only two options. Among those two options, there are 4 ways that people will go: [these are the only ideas people can conclude]

1. The universe doesn’t have a start, in that is doesn’t exist.

2. The universe doesn’t have a start, in that it always existed.

3. The universe has a start, and it started itself.

4. The universe has a start, and it was started by One who is not related to it.

Any idea you can ever fathom about the universe will fall into one of these core ideas. And only one of these ideas is right. They cannot all be right, and they cannot all be wrong, and each one is mutually exclusive to the others, meaning, no two can coexist.

1. We are here, so clearly the universe exists. Because if a thing does not exist, it cannot be aware of its surroundings. We humans, are aware of its surroundings, and we humans see that all objects in the universe have attributes. If a thing does not exist, it does not have attributes.

Clearly option 1 is wrong. It will always be wrong.

2. The universe could not have passed through an infinite amount of changes before now. Because infinity does not have a number. It is not a value. You cannot pull or derive a value from infinity. But at the same time, I can pull and derive a value from the changes that have occurred. For instance in this sentence alone, fifteen words have been typed, fifteen changes have occurred. If it were a case that an infinite amount of changes occurred during the writing of that sentence, then the result of those changes could not compose something that was finite. Also, as mentioned before, you cannot have something “more infinite” than something else. You cannot have something “more best” than something else. So if you infer that that an infinite number of events took place before the year 1438, and you also infer that an infinite number of events occurred before 2006, then your inference would be wrong, because the former has a numerically less amount of events than the latter. Infinite is an I/O function. It *is* black and white. Something is infinite or it isn’t. So you can’t have two things, in this case, two groups of events of objectively different values, and call them the same. Ie, calling them infinite. One group cannot be more infinite than another. In short, the number can be derived from the events before 2008, therefor the events before 2008 are not infinite. And the events from 2008 to now aren’t either.

Clearly option 2 is not the case.

3. A thing must exist to have attributes. ‘To create’ is an attribute. So if a thing doesn’t exist, it cannot be attributed with the power to create. And if it cannot be attributed with that power, than it obviously cannot do it. An example, a man cannot have sex with a woman, in order to have a female child that will grow up and give birth to himself. Or, A computer cannot compute the code required by the machines that are used to build the computer that computed the code in the first place. Or…a thing cannot create the entity that gives itself the power to create. It does not work.

So option 3 is wrong. what is left is option 4.

4. The universe, and all created things, have to have been brought here by One who is not related to them. The first change had to have been brought into existence. The one that brought it here, by definition does not change, because as we mentioned before, a thing cannot create the entity that enables itself to exist. The son required the mother to exist and to do something, in order for the Son to exist, so it is impossible that the son could have caused the mother to exist….Let me explain it one more time. Object B, depends on Object A, in order for Object B to do. This means If Object A didn’t exist, then Object B could not do. So by definition, Object B could not have been the one that caused Object A to be.

What does all that technical sounding talk mean? It means the Creator cannot both be the one that Created change, while still being in need of change before He created it. So that the Creator created change [and we know change has a start, due to the infinite recession fallacy] is by definition proof that the Creator did not need to be ‘changed’ and brought into a state of existence, prior to His creating change.

There is nothing in reason that says that to do something, is a sign of want or need to do it. Because the Creator created everything, is not a sign that the creator needed them. The created existed before space did, there for, the Creator did not need space. But space still exists.

All of this is deduced via reasoning. The scientific way.
TheSonOfAdam, on May 22nd, 2009 at 12:33 am Said:

In my last paragraph, I made a typo.

“”The ***creator*** existed before space did, there for, the Creator did not need space.”"

Replaced the word “created” with Creator.
Thersites, on May 24th, 2009 at 3:40 am Said:

]Son of Adam, you lack the ability to reason.
You omit at least two options from your list of possible uniiverses- “The universe has a start and doesn’t exist.” and “The universe doesn’t have a start and hasn’t always existed” from your list of possibilities, but I’ll just deal with the ones you mention.

“1. The universe doesn’t have a start, in that is doesn’t exist.”
How do you know “if a thing does not exist, it cannot be aware of its surroundings”? You are in no position to assess whether a non-existent being would not be aware of itssurroundings. If you exist you are unable to say what a non-existent being can do; if you do not exist you do not know you do not exist and are aware of your surroundings and so are mistaken.

“2. The universe doesn’t have a start, in that it always existed.”

“For instance in this sentence alone, fifteen words have been typed, fifteen changes have occurred.”
Many more than fifteen changes have occurred; each word is made up of letters, to begin with.
” If it were a case that an infinite amount of changes occurred during the writing of that sentence, then the result of those changes could not compose something that was finite.”
And who said it would?
“Also, … you cannot have something “more infinite” than something else.”
No, but infinities can be larger or smaller than other infinities: I’ve already cited the even numbers and the whole numbers as examples. The infinity of time before 1438 is smaller than the infinity of time before 2008- that’s assuming that there is a before and after except through human perception.

“3. The universe has a start, and it started itself.”
” A thing must exist to have attributes. ‘To create’ is an attribute.”
Really? It’s a verb actually. Please show precisely how “to create” is an attribute.
” So if a thing doesn’t exist, it cannot be attributed with the power to create”
Not at all. If a being is all-powerful then it can do literally anything. Therefore it can both not exist and create everything including itself.. If it cannot do both it cannot be all-powerful. Believers claim the creator of the universe is all-powerful.
“And if it cannot be attributed with that power, than it obviously cannot do it. ”
Again, it could be mistakenly not attributed with that power and still able to do it.
“An example, a man cannot have sex with a woman, in order to have a female child that will grow up and give birth to himself.”
Actually, withsex-change operations and a time machine a man can have sex with a woman who is himself in order to give birth to himself.
“Or, A computer cannot compute the code required by the machines that are used to build the computer that computed the code in the first place. Or…a thing cannot create the entity that gives itself the power to create. It does not work.”
Dr I.J. Good, who died recently, foresaw the Ultra-Intelligent Machine. That is a machine able to design a machine more intelligent than itself. That has not arrived yet, but there are computers able to do just what you say: design machines that can build computers like the one that designed them.

“4. The universe, and all created things, have to have been brought here by One who is not related to them. The first change had to have been brought into existence. The one that brought it here, by definition does not change, because as we mentioned before, a thing cannot create the entity that enables itself to exist.”
Why “because”? Those are s a very different abiliies and there is no immediately obvious logical connexion between them. Even if “a thing cannot create the entity that enables itself to exist.” that is not evidence it was not made by something else.
“The son required the mother to exist and to do something, in order for the Son to exist, so it is impossible that the son could have caused the mother to exist….Let me explain it one more time. Object B, depends on Object A, in order for Object B to do. This means If Object A didn’t exist, then Object B could not do. So by definition, Object B could not have been the one that caused Object A to be.”
This argument depends on the assumption that time is both separate from the universe and one-way. You have not shown that this is so.
In fact, Swart Moor’s claim above that the Creator knows literally everything in the universe when it creates it means that it creates the universe as a a whole and time- like everything else in such a universe- is completely fixed and effectively solid.

” the Creator cannot both be the one that Created change, while still being in need of change before He created it.”
No it doesn’t. The very existence of a “before”, which you presuppose, means that there is change- if in nothing else, in the creation.
” So that the Creator created change [and we know change has a start, due to the infinite recession fallacy] is by definition proof that the Creator did not need to be ‘changed’ and brought into a state of existence, prior to His creating change.”
Do you mean infinite regression? That isn’t a fallacy but a paradox. The point about it is that your claim that nothing can exist without being created therefore something that was not created must exist in order to create all the things that could not exist if they hadn’t been created is just as paradoxical. If you are going to claim that something can exist without being created- a different matter to creating itself, in fact- then you might as well claim that it is the universe. We know that exists without hypotheses. Once you start hypothesising creators you have to logically accept the eternal regression.

“There is nothing in reason that says that to do something, is a sign of want or need to do it. Because the Creator created everything, is not a sign that the creator needed them. The {creator] existed before space did, there for, the Creator did not need space. But space still exists.”
The claim made for the creator is that it is all-knowing and all-powerful. Logically such a being wants or needs nothing, as you say. The very fact that it has created- and according to believers chosen to create- is evidence that some of the claims made for the creator are mistaken
TheSonOfAdam, on May 24th, 2009 at 5:40 am Said:

I’ll address you paragraph by paragraph.

Those two concepts you mention are self contradicting. Nonetheless. Something that does not exist does not have a start. And the second notion I already mentioned. Either way, we are here, thus we exist. The universe [universe = particles, matter, changes, etc etc..not just the sun and the moon] exists.

You can’t have a non-existent being. To be attributed with ‘being’, implies existence. Being is in itself an attribute. Non-existence is an absents of attributes. Existence is an attribute that a thing has, and it is an attribute required by a thing to have other attributes. If a thing does not exist, it cannot be attributed with location. you can’t put ‘nothing’ into a location, because nothing is not a thing.

I didn’t say only 15 changes have occurred. … You cannot have infinities larger or smaller than each other in objective reality. The infinite set theory is a theory, it is not something applied
to reality, it is by definition never going to be applied to reality. You also cannot use a theory to try to make a fact. You are basically putting your opinion up that infinities have variable
sizes, and your opinion happens to deny reason. You are also only saying what you heard on science channel, I suggest doing research to better your understanding of reality.

The power to create something is an attribute. If something does not exist, it does not have attributes. The very definition of nonexistence, is to be without attributes. Something that
does not exist cannot do. I’m not attributed with the power to fly through the air with only my nakedness. Therefor I cannot do it. My body is attributed with white skin, therefor I am not
black. My face is attributed with blue eyes and a red beard. Therefor my eyes are not brown and my beard is not purple. In fact, There is nothing that exists that is related to what it isn’t
attributed with. Intelligence, an attribute. Is not attributed to rocks. Thus intelligence is not related to rocks in any way what so ever. … time machines and Time travel do not exist, and
are impossible. What has happened has happened, and it cannot be changed. Ever. … I never said “computer that can build one “like” the one that built it”..I said a computer cannot
design THE machine that built itself. Also, Machines do not have intelligence, they have I/O switches, and complexity. Higher Complexity does not equate to intelligence.

No, it isn’t evidence that it was not made by itself. But in reference to the Creator, he Created change, he existed before the creation of change, therefor he did not change into the state of existence. He always existed. … Time is nothing but a series of changes. Its not a force or an energy or a dimension, its a human measurement of changes. That’s it. Changes are things that happen to the universe. If there were no changes, there would be no “time”. Time is not different than Inches, Miles, Liters, etc etc..its a unit of measurement for change. Its nothing in and of itself. Everything is fixed. … Everything is determined already.

The universe changes. Which means that it needs one to change it, and to define it with the new attributes at each change. So one who is not part of it, and doesn’t change and doesn’t need to be designated, is the one that designates. There is a stopping point. You cannot have an infinite procession of entities that require an entity before it to change it and define it. Particles do not define themselves, objects in whole do not define themselves.

No one said the Creator made a choice.
Thersites, on May 26th, 2009 at 9:33 pm Said:

“The universe has a start and doesn’t exist.” is or was actually the belief of one religious group. They had calculated when the world was going to end when it apparently failed to end when it should they re-examined their calculations and found them correct. They deduced that the world must have ended but no-one had noticed.

“The universe doesn’t have a start and hasn’t always existed” doesn’t- as you assumed- mean that the universe doesn’t or won’t exist however. If the creator knows exactly every detail of the universe’s history before he creates it then it doesn’t make any difference whther the universe actually exists or not. Every event in it is still just as “real” whether or not it has never happened.

If being is an attribute, so is non-being. If the creator is all-powerful it can be both or neither or both and neither. The muslim claim is that the creator- like nothing- does not have a location.

“I didn’t say only 15 changes have occurred. … ” You said “”For instance in this sentence alone, fifteen words have been typed, fifteen changes have occurred. ” Each of those changes consists of many other changes. Each of those changes…

“You cannot have infinities larger or smaller than each other in objective reality. The infinite set theory is a theory, it is not something applied” REally? Please give an example of any infinity in “objective reality” then.
“You are basically putting your opinion up that infinities have variable” I have cited two infinities that manifestly differ in size. Numbers are actually the ultimate objective reality- they exist entirely indepenently of the “objective” things that their existence is inferred from.

“The power to create something is an attribute. If something does not exist, it does not have attributes. The very definition of nonexistence, is to be without attributes.”
No; as I said, the very definition of nonexistence is possessing theattribute of nonexistence. That does not preclude the possession of other attributes. After all, the attribute of all-powerfulness means that the possessor msut be able to possess the attribute of nonexistence. or it would’t be all-powerful.

“What has happened has happened, and it cannot be changed.”.
Then the creator of what has happened is not all-powerful.

“… I never said “computer that can build one “like” the one that built it”..I said a computer cannot
design THE machine that built itself. ”
How can it build something without designing it? Trial-and-error is system of design too.
“Also, Machines do not have intelligence, they have I/O switches, and complexity. Higher Complexity does not equate to intelligence.”
How do you know? “Intelligence” may well be a side-effect of higher complexity.

“But in reference to the Creator, he Created change, he existed before the creation of change, therefor he did not change into the state of existence. He always existed.”
But the very act of creating change is a change. Look again at the argument for a creator: Nothing can exist without being created therefore something that was not created must exist in order to create all the things that could not exist if they hadn’t been created. The one attribute that the hypothetical creator must logically possess is the ability to create what has been created. It need not possess any other. It need not have always existed; indeed, if it “must” “exist” in order to create everything then it too must have been created. The only attribute its hypothetical cretaor need possess is thge ability to create it. …
The two least illogical possibilities are that the universe is uncreated or an infinite regression of creators. Each requires the acceptance of only one apparent illogicality. Your very claim thet the creator existed “before” the universe means that time existed “before” the universe or there couldn’t be a “before” the universe at all.

“No, it isn’t evidence that it was not made by itself.”
What isn’t evidence that what was not made by itself? If you mean the universe, I have never said that the universe was made by itself.

“No one said the Creator made a choice.”
If the creator did not make a choice the creator does not have free will. Something else muct have made the choice.
kinzi, on May 30th, 2009 at 5:13 am Said:

Thersites, I agree about the logic of it, but from my point of view.

I love God, serve Him from the obligation of love and believe my sins were paid for through the blood of Christ. I am now a child of God, forever in union with the Father and filled with His Holy Spirit.

I don’t have to live in fear of His wrath, but run to obey Him out of a grateful heart that I am accepted in the beloved. Forever.

Islam may have your logical mind, but I am praying that Jesus will now win your heart. That is when peace and joy will rule there.
Believer, on October 8th, 2009 at 2:47 pm Said:

Muslims love God, we serve Him with love, and we sustain hope, backed up by actions, that He will forgive our sins by His Mercy and loving Kindness.

However, we categorically disbelieve that God is Jesus, or vice versa. Jesus, a man, is incapable of carrying the sin burdens of any woman or man.

In fact, to love and serve and rely for salvation on Jesus as only God deserves - is to have completely missed the mark.

The essence of belief is that there is no one or thing or idea or emotion or anything that is worthy of worship except God.

We do live in love, and hope, but also fear. Fear of His divine Wrath and judgment.

But it is never a fear that He will be unjust, for He is completely Just and Merciful.

It is a fear based on our humble acknowledgement of our sins and knowing our capacity for self-deception, arrogance, and error.

Perhaps thinking we know something better than what the prophets brought as messages from God; prefering our desires and imagination than revelation.

It is a fear that we willingly go astray and rebel even after we have learned what pleases God, and what angers Him.

We must not feel secure from the Judgement of God, like we have a free pass to heaven.

Jesus, may peace be on him, is also in need of Allah’s Mercy and Forgiveness on the Day of Judgement, just like any one of us.

I ask Allah - God Almighty - to guide each and every one of us. to forgive us. to let us live and die in the condition of Islam. and to save us from the punishment of Hell, and grant us eternal Paradise. Ameen.
Thermo Cleanse, on March 23rd, 2010 at 11:58 am Said:

Am I able to use this product with other weight reduction products?

Tariq Nelson

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